Technical Fiat 500 2008 petrol manual clutch issue I think?

[Rachel24]

I was driving to work a few weeks ago when I suddenly couldn't get my fiat 500 into gear and the clutch felt spongy, the car the starting smoking from under the bonnet and smelt like clutch! I had someone help me push the car to a safe place and awaited recovery, when the recovery truck came my fiat 500 refused to turn over? Is this a safety mechanism installed into the fiat and when I fix the clutch it'll be resolved or have i got a separate issue?

Any advise welcome, fiat is due in the garage thrusday to have clutch changed

 

[Baglady1990]

What does clutch smell like?
Have you checked your clutch fluid? What shape is your clutch slave in? Any signs of any leaks ? Say under battery tray on top of gearbox? Or down behind passenger wheel?

 

[Rachel24]

What does clutch smell like?
Have you checked your clutch fluid? What shape is your clutch slave in? Any signs of any leaks ? Say under battery tray on top of gearbox? Or down behind passenger wheel?

Distinct burning smell is all I can describe it as tbh, I know that's not much to go by. Clutch fluid to the normal levels, never moved since I brought the car. Slave cylinder seems to be in normal condition no visible leaks in any location.

What I'm most curious about is if the clutch would prevent the car from turning over?

 

[Baglady1990]

Distinct burning smell is all I can describe it as tbh, I know that's not much to go by. Clutch fluid to the normal levels, never moved since I brought the car. Slave cylinder seems to be in normal condition no visible leaks in any location.

What I'm most curious about is if the clutch would prevent the car from turning over?

Well personally I’m impressed so thumbs up ? most women have no idea where the slave is or what fluid is what!! A year and a half ago I was one such woman ? mmmm burning smell not good!!! How’s the coolant levels?
You could well be correct about the clutch though I’m not sure why it would stop the car turning over?
There’s a lot of knowledge on here so just give it some time and a couple of the chaps will give you their opinions

 

[Baglady1990]

jrkitching what are your thoughts?

 

[Rachel24]

Well personally I’m impressed so thumbs up ? most women have no idea where the slave is or what fluid is what!! A year and a half ago I was one such woman ? mmmm burning smell not good!!! How’s the coolant levels?
You could well be correct about the clutch though I’m not sure why it would stop the car turning over?
There’s a lot of knowledge on here so just give it some time and a couple of the chaps will give you their opinions

Thank you! Coolant is all fine. I know the starter issue has to be related to the clutch some how as just as the car refused to go into gear it would no longer turn over and start. I'm also wondering if its the master cylinder in the gear box itself, however when the car is off now I have gears. Its all very confusing as both issues are rather expensive in their own way.

For anyone reading Ive also replaced starter motor and main earth cable recently so know its not a starter issue as such, also no engine management lights are on my dash and when I plug the obd in no fault codes register. I've also checked that the Campbelt hadn't snapped for ease of mind towards my starting issues.

So apart from the clutch being the most obvious issue I'm a bit stuck, may just have to change the clutch and hope for the best and rule an issue out at a time if no-ones experienced the same thing. I have also seen that fiats have a clutch safety switch behind clutch peddle? However was told by fiat if this fails it wouldn't effect my car as I do not have stop and start. This fiat has been problem after problem atm

 

[jrkitching]

@jrkitching what are your thoughts?

My thoughts are that the girls are catching us up!

Seriously though, I'm struggling to think of a good reason why a burnt out clutch would stop the engine turning over.

This is a 13 yr old car, so a worn out clutch isn't that surprising in itself.

Let's wait and see what the garage have to say once it's stripped down. If the clutch is clean but worn, that's reasonable given the age of the car. However, any oil on the clutch would be an indication of other issues, and would warrant further investigation.

 

[Baglady1990]

Thank you! Coolant is all fine. I know the starter issue has to be related to the clutch some how as just as the car refused to go into gear it would no longer turn over and start. I'm also wondering if its the master cylinder in the gear box itself, however when the car is off now I have gears. Its all very confusing as both issues are rather expensive in their own way.

For anyone reading Ive also replaced starter motor and main earth cable recently so know its not a starter issue as such, also no engine management lights are on my dash and when I plug the obd in no fault codes register. I've also checked that the Campbelt hadn't snapped for ease of mind towards my starting issues.

So apart from the clutch being the most obvious issue I'm a bit stuck, may just have to change the clutch and hope for the best and rule an issue out at a time if no-ones experienced the same thing. I have also seen that fiats have a clutch safety switch behind clutch peddle? However was told by fiat if this fails it wouldn't effect my car as I do not have stop and start. This fiat has been problem after problem atm

Well I bought a peach but it turned out to be a Lemmon!!!
I have replaced so many parts myself I’m on my way to being a good amateur mechanic!
Recently it was a/c compressor..drive belt & tensioner then alternator! All in a week!
New rad new fan …previously had to change my heater
Done all my suspension ALL OF IT! Clutch slave and master and a lot more to boot!
Saved £££££ in labour so I’m happy plus thanks to the chaps on here I’ve done it right!
Hopefully it won’t be too serious!!!!! What software do you use? Most of us run fiat specific software called multiecuscan it’s cheap and accurate

 

[portland_bill]

Burning clutch smells like a mixture of damp cardboard and dark green cabbage, and it lingers in the nostrils for some time, ask my learners.

Does the starter engage? Should be a light click/clunk as the pinion engages the flywheel. If no starter action, this suggests an electrical issue to the starter, or the starter destroyed.

Do you have lots of keys dangling from the ignition? Years ago it used to be an issue that lots of keys could keep the starter engaged, as the weight held the switch in the start position. The engine spins the starter too fast, which makes it noisy, and then burns it out. Needs investigating.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

"Burning clutch smells like a mixture of damp cardboard and dark green cabbage" with a touch of rotting sardines thrown in? For sure once smelt never forgotten!

I don't think, from the info we have here, that we're going to come up with an answer for the failure to start/turn over but, although Rachel says she has checked the hydraulics she also talks about "the master cylinder in the gearbox itself"? All the petrol engined Fire installations I've seen - except really old ones which have a cable - have the M/C on the bulkhead (operated by the clutch pedal) and the slave on the outside of the bellhousing (working the release lever) I believe the diesels have a concentric slave inside the bellhousing (but I'm not so familiar with the diesel installations). I'm not trying to be "clever" saying this Rachel, but I'm just wondering if you're looking at the parts you think you are? In your first post you mention a "spongy" pedal and inability to get the car in gear. This is a pretty text book description of having air in the clutch hydraulics, very probably due to failure of seals in either slave or master cylinder - or maybe both. If this proves to be the problem it's best to replace both if you want reliability.

Being able to engage gear when the engine is not running but then not being able to do so with the engine running points pretty conclusively to a clutch failure of some sort. Often this will be due to a failed slave cylinder on our cars, which are a known weakness, but there are other clutch related problems which could be in play.

Whatever, at the end of the day, if it's not obviously the hydraulics at fault then the gearbox will need to come out so the clutch can be examined. If the clutch hasn't been replaced withing the last few years, and bearing in mind you reported burning smells, examining the clutch and replacing it (because there's no point in taking the gearbox out without renewing the clutch) may be your best option anyway? Make sure the workshop looks very carefully indeed at the input shaft seal/bearing as they are a bit of a know issue, as the car ages and mileage increases, regarding leaking gearbox oil. If it's not absolutely dry and with no play when "wiggled" you're likely to be doing another clutch in the not to distant future as the oil leak contaminates the one you've just put in!

I do hope this doesn't sound patronizing? but I'd just like to say how much I'm enjoying seeing posts from the "other" 50% of the population (ie Chris and Rachel in this thread) I do hope to see more in the future.
Regards
Jock

 

[rmjbn1]

I know it seems too unlucky to be a coincidence, but I also can't see how the two issues could be related.

Does anything happen at all when you turn the key? If the starter isn't doing anything, this can only be an electrical issue, possibly with the starter itself.

But no, a failed clutch shouldn't prevent the starter from engaging, or the engine from turning over.

If you can select gears with the engine off, but not with the engine running, then this, together with a spongy pedal, would strongly suggest a hydraulic leak preventing the clutch from disengaging.

This could also account for the smoke and burnt clutch smell if the clutch was just slipping instead of disengaging.

Strange, as you say the fluid level is correct. Just to be certain, this is the clutch fluid reservoir on the 1.2, separate from the brake fluid reservoir.


I'm sorry for your misfortune - it'll be interesting to see what the garage's diagnosis is. Fingers crossed for you it's not too serious.

 

[Rachel24]

Burning clutch smells like a mixture of damp cardboard and dark green cabbage, and it lingers in the nostrils for some time, ask my learners.

Does the starter engage? Should be a light click/clunk as the pinion engages the flywheel. If no starter action, this suggests an electrical issue to the starter, or the starter destroyed.

Do you have lots of keys dangling from the ignition? Years ago it used to be an issue that lots of keys could keep the starter engaged, as the weight held the switch in the start position. The engine spins the starter too fast, which makes it noisy, and then burns it out. Needs investigating.

Hiya sounds like the starter is engaging get all the normal engine sounds and I get one click when the key is turned. And I only have my fiat key and house key so not too many.

 

[Rachel24]

"Burning clutch smells like a mixture of damp cardboard and dark green cabbage" with a touch of rotting sardines thrown in? For sure once smelt never forgotten!

I don't think, from the info we have here, that we're going to come up with an answer for the failure to start/turn over but, although Rachel says she has checked the hydraulics she also talks about "the master cylinder in the gearbox itself"? All the petrol engined Fire installations I've seen - except really old ones which have a cable - have the M/C on the bulkhead (operated by the clutch pedal) and the slave on the outside of the bellhousing (working the release lever) I believe the diesels have a concentric slave inside the bellhousing (but I'm not so familiar with the diesel installations). I'm not trying to be "clever" saying this Rachel, but I'm just wondering if you're looking at the parts you think you are? In your first post you mention a "spongy" pedal and inability to get the car in gear. This is a pretty text book description of having air in the clutch hydraulics, very probably due to failure of seals in either slave or master cylinder - or maybe both. If this proves to be the problem it's best to replace both if you want reliability.

Being able to engage gear when the engine is not running but then not being able to do so with the engine running points pretty conclusively to a clutch failure of some sort. Often this will be due to a failed slave cylinder on our cars, which are a known weakness, but there are other clutch related problems which could be in play.

Whatever, at the end of the day, if it's not obviously the hydraulics at fault then the gearbox will need to come out so the clutch can be examined. If the clutch hasn't been replaced withing the last few years, and bearing in mind you reported burning smells, examining the clutch and replacing it (because there's no point in taking the gearbox out without renewing the clutch) may be your best option anyway? Make sure the workshop looks very carefully indeed at the input shaft seal/bearing as they are a bit of a know issue, as the car ages and mileage increases, regarding leaking gearbox oil. If it's not absolutely dry and with no play when "wiggled" you're likely to be doing another clutch in the not to distant future as the oil leak contaminates the one you've just put in!

I do hope this doesn't sound patronizing? but I'd just like to say how much I'm enjoying seeing posts from the "other" 50% of the population (ie Chris and Rachel in this thread) I do hope to see more in the future.
Regards
Jock

Hiya, I got most of the information directly from fiat and from my diagrams in my manual, so they told me that there is a clutch slave cylinder on the outside of the clutch underneath the car and that there is also a master cylinder within the gear box. They've said that the clutch slave cylinder may have gone along with the clutch which could essentially cause the fiat to go into a safety mode. I am initially going to replace the clutch and clutch slave cylinder ect buying purchasing a full clutch kit and then going from there, the clutch has never been replaced on this car so I'm assuming I will see a lot of wear when it comes of the car, it is also very high mileage so I'm not surprised if it has gone tbh. Fiat also told me that the master cylinder in the gear box can cause the car to go into safety mode. I'm hoping it's the clutch and that I can get it sorted tomorrow.

To be honest until I am able to remove the gear box and clutch tomorrow I won't really know much, hopefully I can update you all a bit more once we've put a replacement in.

 

[rmjbn1]

Hiya, I got most of the information directly from fiat and from my diagrams in my manual, so they told me that there is a clutch slave cylinder on the outside of the clutch underneath the car and that there is also a master cylinder within the gear box.

No, the slave cylinder is bolted to the top of the gearbox, the master cylinder is connected to the clutch pedal.

These plus the connector (mounted inside the left front wheelarch) are where leaks can develop. It's best to clean around these areas and monitor if you suspect a leak.

Anyway, here's hoping the new clutch solves your issues and gets you back on the road.

 

[Rachel24]

No, the slave cylinder is bolted to the top of the gearbox, the master cylinder is connected to the clutch pedal.

These plus the connector (mounted inside the left front wheelarch) are where leaks can develop. It's best to clean around these areas and monitor if you suspect a leak.

Anyway, here's hoping the new clutch solves your issues and gets you back on the road.

Thank you for that, super helpful! When its up in the air tomorrow all do as you said give them a check whilst I'm at it, I've purchased both cylinders anyways as I'm just going to replace them considering the age and mileage of the car I thought its best just to replace them whilst everything out of the way. I'll definitely have a look in the wheelarch though and give it a clean to make sure there no leak as wasn't aware of that thank you for your help always willing to learn new things ?

 

[rmjbn1]

Make sure the workshop looks very carefully indeed at the input shaft seal/bearing as they are a bit of a know issue

+1! I had to replace a clutch with quite a lot of life left in it because of oil contamination earlier this year. Do ask them to check for play in the input shaft.

 

[Ralf S.]

A burning clutch smells like smokey bacon.

I'd guess your clutch release plate fingers or the release bearing are knackered, which would mean the clutch slave has nothing to push against. The resistance in the clutch is the "spring" effect of the release plate fingers.

I dunno why the car doesn't turn over.. but the starter is connected to the flywheel and of the clutch is knacked that might be pressing on the flywheel causing a resistance that the starter motor (which has a clutch action) can't overcome.

It'll be a gearbox off job to find out what's going on...

Ralf S.

 

[Rachel24]

I know it seems too unlucky to be a coincidence, but I also can't see how the two issues could be related.

Does anything happen at all when you turn the key? If the starter isn't doing anything, this can only be an electrical issue, possibly with the starter itself.

But no, a failed clutch shouldn't prevent the starter from engaging, or the engine from turning over.

If you can select gears with the engine off, but not with the engine running, then this, together with a spongy pedal, would strongly suggest a hydraulic leak preventing the clutch from disengaging.

This could also account for the smoke and burnt clutch smell if the clutch was just slipping instead of disengaging.

Strange, as you say the fluid level is correct. Just to be certain, this is the clutch fluid reservoir on the 1.2, separate from the brake fluid reservoir.

View attachment 218325
I'm sorry for your misfortune - it'll be interesting to see what the garage's diagnosis is. Fingers crossed for you it's not too serious.

Oki dokie reply for all as a current update. Clutch is completely shattered in to many pieces, the clutch release fork is also broken which I've had to order in and collect now so may not have the car back until tomorrow and something (can remember the name might have been piston from clutch to gear box idk brains frazzled) was completely burnt out. So all will be replaces and hopefully it starts up with one turn of the key. Crossing fingers its back today but obviously if the mechanic doesn't want want stay longer yo finish that's his choice.

 

[Rachel24]

Oki dokie reply for all as a current update. Clutch is completely shattered in to many pieces, the clutch release fork is also broken which I've had to order in and collect now so may not have the car back until tomorrow and something (can remember the name might have been piston from clutch to gear box idk brains frazzled) was completely burnt out. So all will be replaces and hopefully it starts up with one turn of the key. Crossing fingers its back today but obviously if the mechanic doesn't want want stay longer yo finish that's his choice.

Or might have been a bearing that burnt out can't really remember at the this point as I'm just so stressed out

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks for the update Rachel. "Clutch completely shattered - Release fork broken - and probably the release bearing burnt out" (from what you say). Could be that parts of the clutch were jamming the flywheel - there's not a lot of room between clutch and bellhousing - which would explain why the starter couldn't turn the engine?

If you can please do post some images of the broken bit.

Rachel, do you tend to hold the car on the clutch at traffic lights etc? Of course you may just have been unlucky and had a weak or poorly made clutch but the sort of damage you're describing might also be caused by excessive slipping of the clutch?

If there's been broken bits flying around inside the bell housing and then the clutch actually breaking up, even greater care needs to be taken assessing the condition of the gearbox first motion shaft seal/bearing.