Technical Engine switch off at 85 degrees

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Technical Engine switch off at 85 degrees

Aldino

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Please help!

my engine cuts out at about 85/90 degrees. i have a new feul pump, new coil, new module? (the plate thing on the distributor). when it cuts out there's no jurking or abrupt cut out - it just dies quietly. no drop in coolant level. no water in oil. it will only restart again when the temperature is below 60 degrees. :confused:

Fiat Uno Mia, year 2000, 1100
 
Check your vacuum advance unit. It sits on top of the distributor. Disconnect the hose, and suck / blow into the unit (not the hose). It should be air tight. If not the "membrane thing" is gone, and you need a new (or used) unit. It can also be the other item on the distributor, the ignition module - looks like a tiny car amp. It might be wrecked. So my advice is to get a second hand distributor with these parts intact, and try it.

Morten.
 
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Like Monty Mort I suspected the ignition module but really, since you have changed that...

Can we just talk a little more about what is required to get it to cut out... if you go for a drive, can you make it cut out quicker if you drive faster, or is it literally only when the temperature gauge gets to 85 degrees...

So if you start the engine from cold, it sits there and idles perfectly until the temperature gauge gets to 85 degrees? That has to be the strangest problem I've ever heard.

Is it a carburettor or fuel-injected engine? If fuel-injected, perhaps find and replace the coolant temperature sensor (usually near the thermostat with a blue-coloured socket for the plug). It could be faulty and perhaps the value goes out of range for the ECU-computer to deal with?

Maybe there is an electrical problem when the radiator fan tries to cut in (I really am clutching at straws here!), in which case, try unplugging the radiator temperature switch (below the expansion tank), and leave the engine running (obviously, watch the temperature gauge and switch off when it gets to 100 degrees... *if* it can get to 100 that is...) In the unlikely event this is the problem, it could be an earthing problem with the fan motor or perhaps a short in the motor that overloads the alternator and stops the engine... maybe...

-Alex
 
thanx guys... did all the checks as suggested, no go. Answers: it's a carburator petrol engine. i can't make it cut out - only cuts out when hot.

found a switch with a single wire on the carb - when i disconnect the wire i get the same effect... engine cuts out, it will swing but will not start. temperature switch and fan cut-out switch working okay aswell. also checked the earth wire connected to the transmisson casing - okay. now i'm really clueless. :cry:
 
ive had that prob in the past, only happened when you drove her hard and temps realy rise, and it would cut out no warning, like you turned the ignition off, leave 5 mins then it ran sweet cruise about no probs ,turned out to be ecu breaking down under load, it constantly reading temps from engine, overload, then nowt. would be handy if you had lots of spares to try (ive got spare car in boxes in the loft so it was easy)
 
Yes, simmilar, only mine will start again when it is totally cool again and that can be longer than 5 minutes... unfortunately i don't have an ECU. it's a petrol carburettor. 1100 Uno Mia. do you think the throttle switch will do the same function and is the throttle switch and fuel cutt-off switch the same thing?
 
Aldino said:
Yes, simmilar, only mine will start again when it is totally cool again and that can be longer than 5 minutes... unfortunately i don't have an ECU. it's a petrol carburettor. 1100 Uno Mia. do you think the throttle switch will do the same function and is the throttle switch and fuel cutt-off switch the same thing?

Are you sure you don't have a Microplex or Digiplex down there somewhere? On the Ritmo Abarth the ECU crashed, causing it to stop when normal temp. On the Uno I think they moved to Digiplex II on the carburetted models.

Morten.
 
Morty Mort said:
Are you sure you don't have a Microplex or Digiplex down there somewhere? On the Ritmo Abarth the ECU crashed, causing it to stop when normal temp. On the Uno I think they moved to Digiplex II on the carburetted models.

Morten.

I thought only the SPI Unos had some form of ECU? :confused: All the carburetor models (in the UK) only had the electronic distributor with the ignition amplifier module bolted on the side.

Ironically, I've driven mk1 Unos for over 60K miles now and never had the ignition module go. Famous last words, as it will probably blow up as soon as I get back home and start it up for the first time in three months now I've said that! :eek:
 
Morty... done some reading... everything points to the ignition module. looks like the the ECU is also refered to as the ignition module. i have a breakerless distributor. also done some checks last night - i get a spark from the HT lead from the coil but not from the leads going to plugs. i've swopt the ignition module and get the same result. is it possible that a new module can "burn out" in one months time? is it normal for the distributor to become very hot?
 
Hi Alex... read thru ALL the forum seems like my problem is not unique. so i re-checked everything again. when the engine cuts out there's still spark at the HT lead from the coil but not on the leads going to plugs. could that be the ignition module then - even though it is only 1 month old?
 
Aldino said:
when the engine cuts out there's still spark at the HT lead from the coil but not on the leads going to plugs.

?
I've never seen that but if so, logic suggests a fault with the distributor rotor arm or the distributor cap. I would have expected either of these to give a misfire at high speeds or when under load.

If the engine seems to run absolutely fine, and then suddenly, not run... I still suspect that module that is only one month old (or perhaps its earthing or connections - and I think you should check the pickup air gap as well. The four-pointed rotor should be so close to the pickup that you feel a 'notchiness' as you turn the distributor shaft by hand (distributor removed of course).

-Alex
 
Good morning guys. Thanks for all your great advice. I think I’ve managed to sort out my problem. Still don’t have all the answers to my whys?

What seems to have been the problem… I started the engine and stood there watching it (doing nothing can also deliver some interesting results)… and then I saw it, a small arc jumping onto the throttle cable mounting from either the wire which goes to the solenoid switch on the carburettor or the no.2 plug lead. So I insulated the one and replaced the other. No more arc/spark. And still cutting out at 85degrees. So, off came the distributor and I replaced the brand new contact breaker with an old one… (yes and old one) slap everything back together and… IT WORKED!!

The engine ran smoothly and I could switch off and restart even when the temperature was at +-95degrees (fan kicking in on time).

So now I’m left with the whys!

Is it possible that the arc/spark could cause the breaker to “short out”? or did the heat from the distributor casing cause the contact breaker to malfunction? or as Alex suggested, could the arc/spark have overloaded the alternator? And the big question is why would it only start when the engine was cold again??

Great job guys!! Hope my simple problem might save someone some hassles in the future…. 
 
Aldino said:
And the big question is why would it only start when the engine was cold again??

Well, resistance will change with heat, so it might be simple physics. Alex, you are better than I am at this, so please make a comment from the other side of the world.

M.
 
Morty Mort said:
Well, resistance will change with heat, so it might be simple physics. Alex, you are better than I am at this, so please make a comment from the other side of the world.
M.

LOL at 'better' - hardly, Mr. M... :D

But yes, well done Aldino for having the patience to spot the problem. I've seen cases where the plug leads arc between each other on the distributor cap.

When you say 'contact breaker', I hope you mean the finned module on the distributor? I think the last of the contact-breaker-Unos were made with the 903cc engine. The FIRE has always had 'breakerless' ignition, to my knowledge.

Incidentally, I thought it was the alternator being overloaded ONLY in connection to the radiator fan being shorted out ;) I don't think that the smaller current of the ignition would be enough to overload the alternator.

Anyway, assuming you did mean the finned module, I think it's highly likely that its electronics were damaged by the arcing. Why the arcing should only occur at the higher temperature is a bit of a puzzle. It could be that the module itself generates a higher-energy spark when the transistors etc. are warm, when then caused the spark-plug lead insulation to break down.

In an effort to contribute something interesting... :) This is my understanding of the conduction process, anyone please feel free to contribute if I have made any mistakes.

Most conductors obey Ohm's Law to a varying extent; V = I x R (Volts = Current x Resistance). Thus for a given voltage, a decrease in resistance gives an increase in current flow.

There are actually two types of behaviour exhibited by conductors (materials that conduct electricity). With metallic materials (e.g. wire, or the filament in a light bulb) the resistance increases with temperature. This is useful because it is effectively self-regulating; the light bulb glows, gets hot from the current flow, resistance rises (due to the random movement of the metal molecules impeding the flow of electrons), and the current flow is restricted. (This is also why light bulbs sometimes blow when first switched on (not when already on...) because the current flow is greatest when the bulb is cold, and the weakened filament can't cope any longer.)

Semiconductors (e.g. doped silicon as used in diodes and transistors) are the opposite story. As the temperature increases, the mobility of the charge carriers (electrons and 'holes') increases. This means the resistance decreases with temperature increase, so the current flow can increase (and this can result in a higher temperature). This is why you get a much bigger BANG when a transistor explodes :) and also why most electronic devices include some form of protection (e.g. a thermal fuse).

Meanwhile, some types of transistors (particularly the high-power MOSFET type) were known in the past to be affected by an electric charge in the wrong place ('CMOS latch-up' if anyone's interested) that caused the transistor to effectively become stuck-on as the excess charge would flood the area that was supposed to regulate the current flow through the junction. And similarly, the whole anti-static business is designed to reduce damage to the CMOS devices in memory chips, etc.

From all this, I'm satisfied enough that the current in the transistors would reach a maximum when the electronic module was hot (being bolted to the distributor would mean it will warm up with the engine).

And, the high-tension current sparked across from the spark plug lead to the engine, which is where the electronic module is earthed to. So, this high-voltage 'spike' possibly found its way to the module's transistors, damaging them so that they could no longer handle the full current later, when the module was hot. One would have expected the module to be protected with diodes on the outputs, but nothing is ever perfect and with the electronics crammed into such a small space, the protection is probably compromised in some way.

We know these modules to be a little fickle, but it seems that maintenance of spark plugs and leads may prolong the life of the electronics?

-Alex
 
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makes a lot of sense.

it is not the finned module (ignition module). it is the "thing" that plugs into the module (two wires), and "pumps" the vacume advance -- so what do you call this "thing"?.

now for the test drive...
 
that's it... learned over the weekend what the name was.

thanks everyone for all the help. i've done 125km with her over the weekend and she is doing fine. getting a backup pickup seems a bit expense and scares - i'll have to get it anyway.

Maybe one day i'll also have a wealth of knowledge to share....
Cheers guys :wave: :worship: (y)
 
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