Technical Ducato x224 2,8 jtd engine dies after 5-10 seconds. first start of day.Start perfectly after.

[Mickerorsvik]

Hi, I have a problem with my motorhome. The engine dies after 5-10 seconds, sometimes longer. This occurs after standing overnight or for a couple of hours.
Today, I need to have two tries, having been standing for 14 days. The problem is getting worse. Today I cleaned the fuel filter, a minimal amount of water and dirt.
Does anybody have an idea what to look at or try?

Br Micke

 

[ceecff]

May be electrical or air leak.

 

[diego74]

This can be due to many reasons, something you can test by yourself is when you turn the key to the ON possition you should hear the fuel pump working under the drivers' seat (there is a pannel you can remove and see the low pressure pump), turn it off, wait a couple of seconds (30 maybe) and turn the key to the ON possition again and see if you hear it working again, by doing this you are increasing the diesel pressure in the low-pressure channel in case that the initial pump is not enough to reach the expected 5 bars, perhaps the low pressure pump is not working as expected. If this does not help perhaps a scanner to check the realtime values when the issue occurs can be of help, I use a cheap ELM327 BT interface and the AlfaOBD app in my cellphone.

Hope this helps,
Diego.

 

[Communicator]

Hi, I have a problem with my motorhome. The engine dies after 5-10 seconds, sometimes longer. This occurs after standing overnight or for a couple of hours.
Today, I need to have two tries, having been standing for 14 days. The problem is getting worse. Today I cleaned the fuel filter, a minimal amount of water and dirt.
Does anybody have an idea what to look at or try?

Br Micke

Does the engine only fail immediately after starting, or does it stop other times?

Have you checked for fault codes?

On the fuel supply side, is the strainer on the in tank fuel lift pump clean.

I was wondering about fuel rail pressure, or pressure sensor. As engine starts, it can't be the camshaft sensor, and crankshaft sensor is more likely to fail when hot.

Do inspect all main electrical connections, including chassis earth near RHS engine mounting, and the engine earth at starter stud on clutch housing.

@jackwhoo Any thoughts?

 

[jackwhoo]

Which fuel filter "cleaned"?

Possibly air in fuel?

Suggest renew replaceable fuel filter and it's seal rings with good brand and check in tank fuel pick up strainer.

 

[Mickerorsvik]

This can be due to many reasons, something you can test by yourself is when you turn the key to the ON possition you should hear the fuel pump working under the drivers' seat (there is a pannel you can remove and see the low pressure pump), turn it off, wait a couple of seconds (30 maybe) and turn the key to the ON possition again and see if you hear it working again, by doing this you are increasing the diesel pressure in the low-pressure channel in case that the initial pump is not enough to reach the expected 5 bars, perhaps the low pressure pump is not working as expected. If this does not help perhaps a scanner to check the realtime values when the issue occurs can be of help, I use a cheap ELM327 BT interface and the AlfaOBD app in my cellphone.

Hope this helps,
Diego.

Which fuel filter "cleaned"?

Possibly air in fuel?

Suggest renew replaceable fuel filter and it's seal rings with good brand and check in tank fuel pick up strainer.

Hi All! I have cleaned the filter. It is a good brand filter. Seals are looking good, but that did not help. Have not checked for any fault codes yet.
However, I have noticed one thing: if we leave the car for a week, it will not start on the first try, as if it is not getting fuel. But directly on the second try.

that it is stopping after 5-10 seconds. occurs from time to time when we use it.

Does someone have an electrical drawing for the fuel system, so I can see if the pump is getting power? X244

any other ideas?

 

[Mickerorsvik]

Hi All! I have cleaned the filter. It is a good brand filter. Seals are looking good, but that did not help. Have not checked for any fault codes yet.
However, I have noticed one thing: if we leave the car for a week, it will not start on the first try, as if it is not getting fuel. But directly on the second try.

that it is stopping after 5-10 seconds. occurs from time to time when we use it.

Does someone have an electrical drawing for the fuel system, so I can see if the pump is getting power? X244

any other ideas?

I can hear the pump is running for 15-20 Seconds.

I will try to leave the car for 3 days and turn the key so the pump is running, but not start the car after that, turn it off.
Then start.

Have tried with both keys. If it is a problem with the immobiliser.

Let's see, any other ideas?

 

[Kahcorp]

The pump can run but not be making the pressure needed to run the engine.
I am sure this has been said previously on this post.

 

[Mickerorsvik]

The pump can run but not be making the pressure needed to run the engine.
I am sure this has been said previously on this post.

HI this is also my thinking. Maybe will change pump directly.

 

[Communicator]

Hi All! I have cleaned the filter. It is a good brand filter. Seals are looking good, but that did not help. Have not checked for any fault codes yet.
However, I have noticed one thing: if we leave the car for a week, it will not start on the first try, as if it is not getting fuel. But directly on the second try.

that it is stopping after 5-10 seconds. occurs from time to time when we use it.

Does someone have an electrical drawing for the fuel system, so I can see if the pump is getting power? X244

any other ideas?

If I remember correctly, the lift pump which is controlled by the ECU, runs for about 20 seconds, and the times out, unless the engine is started.

 

[Mike1alike]

This usually happens when the battery is discharged. How is the battery?

 

[Mickerorsvik]

This usually happens when the battery is discharged. How is the battery?

No problem with battery

 

[bugsymike]

Probably already mentioned but any chance air in fuel system, dodgy fuel filter seal/ connectors etc.
If the plastic pipe from filter to high pressure pump is clear lastic it may be possible to see air bubbles when at that initial start problem phase.
This would account for starting happily and then stumbling after it uses up the good fuel from the high pressure pump.
A good diagnostic tool set to read "live data" of Common Rail fuel pressure when cranking and that first running stage would be a guide if it suddenly starts to struggle to meet the roughly 230Bar minimum required for engine ECU to switch on injectors.
Don't know for sure but possibly see if it still stumbles after turning ignition on till pump in tank stops and repeating that a couple of times as this may "self bleed " any air via the leak off return pipes to the tank. Try it as a guide.

 

[Mike1alike]

Also, are there any traces of diesel under the hood? Near injectors or return lines? Or near the fuel pump?

 

[Mickerorsvik]

I will do a summary:

The car starts but dies randomly after 5 seconds. Starting on the next try always.
I have tried using more time before starting the car. (so all systems can be fully ready)
Hard to say if that has helped.
The car can also run perfectly for a full day. I would say that 8 out of 10 don't face this problem.
I feel that the problem escalates when I leave the car for a couple of days; it will not start at all on the first try, but on the second try, it's no problem.
Then it worked fine for the rest of the trip.


What have I done so far:
* Test with both keys
* clean fuel filter (good brand)
* Hear that the pump is alive
* Can not see any leaks around the motor
* No battery problem

Will try:
*double prime with the key.


Does anyone know if the fuel system has a check value? Drawing of the fuel system


Gut feeling:
Over time, losing fuel pressure or not enough fuel pressure created due to being standing for a couple of days.
I don't think it is air when the car is working, we have been using the car for 5000km this year.

Any ideas what to do or try?

 

[jackwhoo]

Check fuel strainer inside fuel tank and in tank fuel pump - this has been mentioned before .

 

[jackwhoo]

How old is fuel filter? It is not possible to clean a fuel filter element . Fit a new fuel filter of good brand.

 

[Mickerorsvik]

How old is fuel filter? It is not possible to clean a fuel filter element . Fit a new fuel filter of good brand.

Hi, it is one year old only like 10000km I guess

 

[bugsymike]

I still think symptoms point towards a small amount of air getting into fuel system before the high pressure pump when left standing for a few days.
When ignition is turned on the low pressure pump sends that small amount of air towards the high pressure pump which after it has used the good air free diesel in the pump body which engine has started on, then has to pressurise air rather than fuel and so cannot push it through the common rail so engine computer detects the drop and engine dies, until the next good bit of fuel come through.
To prove or disprove my theory rig up a temporary gravity fed fuel line to a 5 litre container of good clean fuel directly to the high pressure pump, run it for a very short time to clear any air in assembly, switch off, leave for the normal amount of days that it takes for the fault to occur and then try starting vehicle.
If it starts and runs well , then look for air issue on low pressure side of high pressure pump.
Note this test will only run for a matter of minutes as due to no fuel return to the 5 litre can all fuel not used by injection will be returned to the normal fuel tank very quickly.
If you don't want to do this, try running the engine for a while, switch engine off, then turn ignition back on but not start engine so low pressure pump in tank is keeping line full of fuel, wipe all fuel low pressure lines and filter body totally clean using a paper towel.
Keep ignition on for a few minutes and recheck all that you cleaned and carefully examine the paper towel at each point to see if any signs of diesel leak.
I had similar issue on a Peugeot where the customer had fitted a new fuel filter himself, vehicle would start perfectly run for 30 seconds and then die.
By checking I found a small drip of diesel under the filter he had changed, I replace with new filter and all the seals included in the box and fixed his vehicle!