Technical ducato starting problem

[kenny123]

hello just looking to see if anyone on here has had the same issue as I have with my ducato 160 multijet, the problem is when starting the engine turns but seems to need the accelerator pedal pushed in to get it started,
had the local garage look at it when the engine management light came on and it gave a throttle body error, so the guy cleared the code and said just to keep an eye on it that was a while back now when it only played up now and then, but its doing it every time I start it now, so I returned it to the garage and he is now saying the glow plugs need replaced and that is the issue bit strange that I think, it seems to get worse when the engine is warm and the other day it started and just ran at 1000rpm when pressing the accelerator nothing, turn it off and back on it runs fine once started? the guy at the garage says he will have to strip the whole front end down to get to the plugs to replace them and highly likely they will snap and could turn into a £1500 job to fix not sure what to do just looking for a bit of advice, thanks.

 

[taffybloke]

If it worse when warm then unlikely to be glow plugs, It could be earth straps.

It sounds like the dreaded water ingress saga.

Has it still got a throttle body issue?

If Needed----To get access to the glow plugs is not to difficult, remove front grill, remove middle bumper section (panel behind grill), remove slam panel, remove throttle body, Its about half an hour at most.

Onto the nasty bit. The glow plugs can indeed snap, as they are only 8mm and they snap at about 20nm and if this happens they have to be drilled out, There are kits on the market for this but when mine snapped I used a local guy the garages used, these 8mm plugs are common on lots of cars, Vauxhall, BMW to name two so the are likely to know a man who can remove them. I was charged £200 and he came to my house to remove them.

Also the glow plug caps/connector can corrode and cause errors so check these.

Get yourself a code reader and check what codes are recorded

As I said before it is unlikely to be glow plugs as they usually only cause problems in cold weather with a cold engine.

Mike

 

[kenny123]

Thanks for your advice Mike, never had the error codes read since the last time where do you get the code readers from? just out of interest do you think the plugs could be done by myself? by what you say doesn't sound a big job to get to them but knowing my luck once I get to them I will snap them, the guy at the garage is reluctant to do the job due to the snapping issue.

 

[Ducatiman]

This is exactly why I try to never let the garage work on my vehicles, they would probably have changed the ECU during my last issue only to find that it didn't help anyway.

Glow plugs sound very unlikely IMHO, you can get a code reader for about 20quid off evilbay, I borrowed one from my son in law to check mine.

I'd be inclined to look at the codes and use a bit of logic to work through what it might be before spending a small fortune on unnecessary work.

 

[kenny123]

Think like you say i'll do a bit more research into the symptoms before giving this garage basically a blank cheque, read a few articles on the internet regarding the symptoms and very few say plugs, most of the articles say throttle body, egr valve, crankshaft sensor but not plugs. The guy at the garage thinks its the plugs as he recons he tested them with a multi-meter but giving there location I cant see how he could test them, think he just don't want to do the job to be honest, but thanks for the replies really appreciate that thanks again.

 

[Ducatiman]

You can of course test the resistance of the plugs but a bad one normally causes bad starting more than bad running when hot. They are heated electrically at start up but then the combustion process keeps them glowing. Very possible that one ore more could be duff but IMVHO unlikely to be the cause of your problem.

Another thing well worth looking at is the Suction Control Valve (has different names depending on vehicle manufacturer) it is basically a regulator that governs the amount of fuel fed to the high pressure fuel pump on a common rail diesel. I had problems recently with my Nissan Pathfinder, it was hard to start, cut out at traffic lights and generally ran like a bag of spanners. I was advised that it might be the SCV so I changed it and it transformed the vehicle!

There are also loads of sensors to consider on the modern engines so worth checking connections and the simple things first perhaps?

 

[taffybloke]

I use multecu but others have there own views. Yani (the author is a member here and very friendly)

Read this........https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/359420-obd-reader-one-buy.html


Mike

 

[kenny123]

Hello thanks for all the advice had the Ducato back on the diagnostic computer again today and the problem is the egr valve so looking like I'll be £300 lighter soon haha but appreciate all your replies tho this forum is very helpful and nice set of guys on here.

 

[taffybloke]

This is a lot cheaper than a new valve

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/06-EGR-cheater-simulator-blanking-plate-Ducato-Iveco-Boxer-Jumper-3-0-JTD-HDI-/171616705480?hash=item27f5271bc8:gKUAAOSwyZ5UnvTO

If the valve is clogged then so will the inlet manifold and the throttle body. Cleaning these is not to difficult. Have a look at this thread.

https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/417719-egr-blanking-off.html

 

[Ducatiman]

Hello thanks for all the advice had the Ducato back on the diagnostic computer again today and the problem is the egr valve so looking like I'll be £300 lighter soon haha but appreciate all your replies tho this forum is very helpful and nice set of guys on here.

Is that the part price or price including fitting??

If the former you might get one a lot cheaper from evilbay, just had a quick look and depending on which one you need they look around just over the £100 mark.

Just a thought.

Hope it cures the problem for you when you replace it!

 

[kenny123]

hello again everyone, just wanted to give an update to my issue with the van anyway had a second opinion on the issue and was told throttle valve needed replacing so purchased the pierburg with harness and fitted today, the van is 100% better if not sorted but after starting many times today still get the odd hard start now and then, the old throttle body was all gunked up and looks rusted inside as others have said on here.
i'm not very clued up with engines etc. to be honest this is the first diy repair I have done ever couldn't of done it without this forum tho but it seems a very strange design where diesel fumes are sent back through the engine to block everything up! did fiat or Iveco whoever makes these engines not think maybe after 100k miles of continuous recirculation of carbon deposits things are going to get blocked.....................obviously not or maybe its designed in to cash in on replacement parts, if anyone else has this problem you could probably clean the part as others have done but I purchased the part from a guy on ebay so I just put it on as did not want to try send it back.

 

[corcai]

did fiat or Iveco whoever makes these engines not think maybe after 100k miles of continuous recirculation of carbon deposits things are going to get blocked.....................obviously not or maybe its designed in to cash in on replacement parts

Fiat / Iveco had nothing to do with the design or introduction of EGR valves, emissions regulations mean they are ubiquitous now. Its there to reduce the amount NOx emissions which have serious health and environment implications.

The alternatives are expensive catalysts and urea injection (adblue), NOx traps with precious metal catalysts which have proven not to work very well or air seperation membranes. Future emissions standards will probably require a combination egr plus those.

 

[kenny123]

I know the health benefits of the egr valve just think the manufacturers should build in some sort of removable filter or something which lets exhaust gas pass but not the gunk.

 

[corcai]

I know the health benefits of the egr valve just think the manufacturers should build in some sort of removable filter or something which lets exhaust gas pass but not the gunk.

And of course you'd be happy to pay for the cost and maintenance of that?

An egr is a very simple cheap solution. The vacuum controlled types were very reliable, whoever thought of sticking an electronic actuator on it instead was counting the pennies - not thinking about longevity. Whoever put the acuator on the underside of the first gen ones to fill up with condensate was an idiot.

If the car already has a DPF you can use a low pressure egr system as per the BMW X5 that takes the exhaust from downstream of the particulate filter and feed it in before the turbo compressor.

Its not without disadvantages it produces a much longer recirculation circuit, high compressor temperature, compressor wear, issues with condensation of hydrocarbons and water vapour, some components are attached to chassis some to engine leading to reliability and longevity issues through physical movement/vibration/expansion/contraction.

To filter high pressure egr would require a large particulate filter which in turn would require thermal and barometric sensors, some form of regeneration involving valves, pipes and an injector, heat shields, lots of space under the bonnet and a computer and wiring to control all that. It would cost X times as much as an egr valve to the manufacturer and XX times as much to the consumer to repair/replace.