Technical Dead feeling Steering

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Technical Dead feeling Steering

Daveof49

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I have a 2013 Lounge which has the most awful steering which seems to be getting worse.
It feels heavy and wayward when driving in a straight line under normal driving over 20mph.
Moving such as parking feels not to bad and quite light other than that its a nightmare.
When going through a bend, left or right hand, it feels like it does not want to straighten and if I take my hands off the wheel it will continue to go into the turn.
I had the tracking done some time ago which seemed to help and maybe I need to get it redone but can't believe its gone out of track again. Having said that my wife said she hit a pot hole the other week.

Has anyone got any ideas what it could be?
 
I’m gonna presume this is a fiat 500? Probably would have been better to post in the Fiat 500 forum rather than the leisure lounge which is for talk about anything other than problems with your car.

There are a whole host of reasons you could be having these problems, worn suspension components, bad alignment, bad electric power steering, bad tires or buckled wheels.

If your wife has hit a sizeable pot hole since the tracking was last done then it probably needs an inspection to rule out any damage and possibly set up the tracking again, if they are anything like where I live at the moment pot holes are more like craters currently which would happily bend suspension parts or buckle wheels and damage tires so until you have ruled out the obvious there’s no point worrying about what else it might be
 
I forgot to mention its a Panda. Thought I was in the Panda forum.

I tend to agree. I will get my local garage to check it over then get the tracking checked.

This is my second Panda and both had steering issues which felt like I was always fighting it.

Just would like to know if anyone else has had steering issues. Looking through the threads there doesn't appear to be many.
 
I have a 2013 Lounge which has the most awful steering which seems to be getting worse.
...

Has anyone got any ideas what it could be?
It could be the tracking , although it would have to be a way off to create that sort of effect. Another possibility is the power steering not working correctly. This can be caused by a low battery voltage -- the wire to the steering motor is the biggest one in the car, as it takes a huge amount of current. If the battery is failing the electronic control 'cuts back' on the amount of power to high load items and the steering is one of the first, more especially once moving faster than 'parking speed'. Also, tyre pressures?
 
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It feels heavy and wayward when driving in a straight line under normal driving over 20mph.
Moving such as parking feels not to bad and quite light other than that its a nightmare.
When going through a bend, left or right hand, it feels like it does not want to straighten and if I take my hands off the wheel it will continue to go into the turn.

Has anyone got any ideas what it could be?
These were the syptoms I had just after my Panda turned 3 years old, to which I suspected the battery to be the culprit as Herts Hillhopper says the electric power steering wire is the biggest in the car, takes a huge amount off current from the battery so when the battery starts to fail you'll feel it in the steering. So when replacing the battery i'd recommend paying out & getting a decent well known brand such as Bosch,Varta etc as the dualdrive power steering takes a huge current from the battery. I personally think if you got one of those cheap unknown brand batteries you'd be back in the same position again in no time so worth paying that little extra. I changed the battery in my Panda from the original to a Varta Silver C30 which was a slightly higher rate than the original & it solved the problem. If you go to Battery Megastore or I think the other one is Tayna if i'm correct you can get a good brand battery for not a lot of money, my Varta was £50 with free 24hr delivery
 
Thanks for your responses all.
I had the tracking done and the underside checked by my local garage. He said everything underneath was ok with no wear in the ball joints etc.
Although the car felt better after the tracking was done back in late April it has started feeling the same as it was. Some days its ok but seems to change for the worst at any time eg it will be ok in the morning going to work but bad coming home.
The battery is dated 2019 but not sure of the quality or how powerful it is.
I check the tyre pressures and I know they are ok.
If it is the battery would the steering not be bad all of the time and not intermittant? I don't get any warning lights come on so I am presuming that the steering column/motor are ok.
Has anyone got any more ideas or should I just try a new battery?
 
Thanks for your responses all.
I had the tracking done and the underside checked by my local garage. He said everything underneath was ok with no wear in the ball joints etc.
Although the car felt better after the tracking was done back in late April it has started feeling the same as it was. Some days its ok but seems to change for the worst at any time eg it will be ok in the morning going to work but bad coming home.
The battery is dated 2019 but not sure of the quality or how powerful it is.
I check the tyre pressures and I know they are ok.
If it is the battery would the steering not be bad all of the time and not intermittant? I don't get any warning lights come on so I am presuming that the steering column/motor are ok.
Has anyone got any more ideas or should I just try a new battery?
being intermittent is quite possible if it is the battery and charging system to blame. Maybe get a cheapo (eBay) voltmeter to fit the cigar lighter and then you could see if a voltage drop coincides with the steering getting heavy. They would help with diagnosis.
 
With all the remedial stuff that's been done and the fact your local garage has given it a check over (these are not complicated cars so any competent mechanic should be able to spot something obvious) The next most likely thing is insufficient supply of electrical current. The current draw is substantial and varies with how much effort is needed to turn the wheels so your problem being intermittent could be accounted for by this. If the battery itself is not in very good condition then it's likely to still start the engine and most other stuff but the power steering calls for large current to be delivered over much longer periods of time. This is why JaffaO above is recommending a cheap voltmeter plugged into your ciggy lighter socket so you can see what battery voltage is doing. However you really need an analog gauge as a digital one will probably just display rolling numbers which you can't make any sense of. I guess you'd be looking for something over 10 volts minimum and hopefully more. A battery voltage with engine running is normally around 14 volts, give or take half a volt and around 12.5 after standing for a few hours without the engine running.

I don't think anyone has mentioned the Earth cable problem? There's an earth cable which runs from the body to the gearbox casing on the N/S. Thinking about it I don't think it's part of the circuit for the power steering? Please some more knowledgeable person advise us? But it's so well known to corrode it's worth giving it a vigorous wiggle to see if it falls apart. You can check it easily by bridging it with a jump lead - Gearbox case to body earth - drive about a bit and see if you get any improvement.

Another thing which I believe can give trouble is the sensing spool in the steering column. This senses when you are turning the wheel and how much assistance to provide by monitoring the torque being applied to the wheel. Luckily I've never had to do one, but there are posts on here from people who have. If it turns out to be the actual powered steering unit you can send away your own unit to the likes of Western: http://www.westernpowersteering.co.uk/ who will repair and upgrade it and send it back to you. The big advantage to having your own unit repaired in this way is twofold. They incorporate upgraded components (and, I think, then warranty it for life? better check on that though) but best of all once you get it back, because it's the unit that was in the car before, no coding to the vehicle is needed, it's just fit and drive away!

Just as a wee aside. If you find you need a battery, I'm lucky enough to have a Halfords Trade Card and I walked out their door with a Yuasa HSB012 for our 2012 1.2 Panda: https://www.halfords.com/motoring/b...-12v-car-battery-5-year-guarantee-160815.html. The price made it not worth looking on line. Many mechanics/engineers have these cards - could be worth asking around if you know anyone who works on cars a lot.
 
@Daveof49 I think its a TA 4x4, if so you should have city setting on steering? Does this have any discernible effect, either on or off? Should be quite noticeable in my experience. If it is this model then you should have and get a Stop/Start battery which is more expensive but what the system is probably expecting.
 
Thanks for your responses all.
I had the tracking done and the underside checked by my local garage. He said everything underneath was ok with no wear in the ball joints etc.
Although the car felt better after the tracking was done back in late April it has started feeling the same as it was. Some days its ok but seems to change for the worst at any time eg it will be ok in the morning going to work but bad coming home.
The battery is dated 2019 but not sure of the quality or how powerful it is.
I check the tyre pressures and I know they are ok.
If it is the battery would the steering not be bad all of the time and not intermittant? I don't get any warning lights come on so I am presuming that the steering column/motor are ok.
Has anyone got any more ideas or should I just try a new battery?
Id say 'go for a new battery'. Suggest looking at Tayna (as a supplier). They do next day delivery of a whole range of car batteries at prices well below anywhere else I've found -- and to be honest is money well spent before chasing anything else. The battery is a stop-start type which costs a little more, and conversely seems not to last as long. (see https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/exide/el600/ £88 plus delivery - the Fiat original was made by Excide). (My 2018 car with 46000 miles and regularly used on longish journeys has already reached the point where either the stop-startrt doesn't bother, or if it does stop, it restarts a moment later as the sensor detects the voltage is dropping too quickly.)

For a longer answer:

You say 'wouldn't the steering be bad all the time'. The answer is probably not. In basic terms, all the circuits in the car draw their power direct from the battery, and the alternator does its best to keep the charge levels up. But, because of the way the alternator in the Panda (and most other 'modern' cars) works, it delivers less charge when the engine is pulling the car along (eg starting off, going up hill), and much more on the overrun (when you lift off the throttle, are going down hill, etc). You can sense this by listening to the heating fan which blows a little faster/louder when you back off the throttle. The 'intelligent alternator' is supposed to help deliver better fuel economy. This variation in charge current (not voltage, but current) means the battery is not always maintained at full charge when driving – the assumption being it will average out over a journey to keep everything in order. If you do a lot of driving on a road where you steer a lot (especially around town with lots of slow-speed tight turns), you'll use a lot more juice from the battery than if you do a long straight bit, and if the alternator can't replenish full charge so readily as there's little overrun on town driving, then (if teh battery is weak, or less able to be charged quickly) you may find there are times where the steering assistance is not so strong.
 
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I'd prefer to monitor battery voltage real time before splashing the cash, but I think it very likely that the battery is going to be the culprit. If you go for a new one,'specially if it's mail order, remember, before using, to remove the little breather plugs which stop the electrolyte leaking out in transit. There's usually one at either end of the top of the battery case.
 
I have one of these cheapo volt monitors you plug into the 12v socket and remember doing this some time ago and as well as I can remember if showed 14v whilst driving. Because of where its located in the Panda its was difficult to keep an eye on it to check for fluctuations in the voltage. Regarding this I have a question which I hope someone can answer. Is it not the current that matters if the steering uses a lot of power and not the voltage so much? If it is the current would an ammeter give a better indication? Not that I wish to go through the effort of fitting one. I remember fitting one in my old MG Midget years ago and it was a right pain.

At the moment my Panda seems to be ok but I will monitor it with the volt meter again just to see if there are any fluctuations in voltage.

If I change the battery is it better to fit a 54AH one as FiatMatt94 suggests instead of the standard 45AH type?
 
The stiffness could be caused by stuck strut top bearings too. Of course you'd be hearing noises and clunking from the springs while turning the steering wheel. That too would cause it to draw extra energy. On top of that they're pretty common faults on some Fiats, maybe even this one. :unsure:
 
I have one of these cheapo volt monitors you plug into the 12v socket and remember doing this some time ago and as well as I can remember if showed 14v whilst driving. Because of where its located in the Panda its was difficult to keep an eye on it to check for fluctuations in the voltage. Regarding this I have a question which I hope someone can answer. Is it not the current that matters if the steering uses a lot of power and not the voltage so much? If it is the current would an ammeter give a better indication? Not that I wish to go through the effort of fitting one. I remember fitting one in my old MG Midget years ago and it was a right pain.

At the moment my Panda seems to be ok but I will monitor it with the volt meter again just to see if there are any fluctuations in voltage.

If I change the battery is it better to fit a 54AH one as FiatMatt94 suggests instead of the standard 45AH type?
An ammeter shows how much current is being drawn by components. If this is more than the battery is capable of a significant drop in voltage will occur. So a voltmeter is a good indicator of battery efficiency.
 
I have one of these cheapo volt monitors you plug into the 12v socket and remember doing this some time ago and as well as I can remember if showed 14v whilst driving. Because of where its located in the Panda its was difficult to keep an eye on it to check for fluctuations in the voltage. Regarding this I have a question which I hope someone can answer. Is it not the current that matters if the steering uses a lot of power and not the voltage so much? If it is the current would an ammeter give a better indication? Not that I wish to go through the effort of fitting one. I remember fitting one in my old MG Midget years ago and it was a right pain.

At the moment my Panda seems to be ok but I will monitor it with the volt meter again just to see if there are any fluctuations in voltage.

If I change the battery is it better to fit a 54AH one as FiatMatt94 suggests instead of the standard 45AH type?
Voltage vs amperage (current) gets confusing doesn't it? It's all about the system's ability to flow electricity. As a lead acid battery ages it suffers sulphation of the plates (you can't really stop it doing this although you can slow it down by good practice and battery maintenance). What this does is reduces the ability of the surface of the plate to react which means the battery effectively behaves like a smaller battery. This is why you can often charge up an old battery and then if you check it with a voltmeter it'll show good voltage (ie. maybe 12.5 volts or so) However if you try to use it to drive something which needs a largish current - like maybe a starter motor or modern electric power steering - either it rotates it very slowly or maybe not at all. If you have a voltmeter monitoring the battery voltage while you try to do this you'll observe the voltage will be low (less than about 10 volts is considered to be unacceptable, but you'd hope to see much more, like around 11.5) In other words it holds good voltage when at rest but voltage drops greatly when a load is applied.

So, yes it's the current that "drives" the component but it's the voltage that forces the current to flow. If you don't have the voltage then there's nothing to drive the current through the system. In fact, when trying to start an engine on a modern car, you can reach the situation where the current drawn by the starter reduces the voltage available from a "tired" battery to below the voltage threshold required by some of the electronic systems so you end up with an engine which cranks - albeit probably very slowly - but the plugs and fueling system won't work because they don't get the voltage they require. If you monitor the voltage in real time it will give you a very good idea if enough amperage is available to drive other systems. When Becky's battery (2010 1.2 panda 169) started to show symptoms of early failure I replaced the original Exide battery with a Yuasa HSB012 which is the 54Ah battery recommended for the newer Panda. Interestingly, and perhaps more importantly, it's rated at 500 amps cold cranking output whereas the old battery was only rated at 360. This means the new battery can deliver a much higher output than the old one and this has been very noticable when starting the car. The old battery was still starting the car and I wasn't getting any steering problems, but the engine cranks much more enthusiastically with the new battery. Installing a battery with a higher Ampere hour rating should give greater reserves of cranking time if needed, so, in my opinion, it's nearly always worth going for the larger capacity battery, if it will fit into the space available..
 
Many thanks Puggit Auld Jock, a fantastic explanation and information.

I will monitor the voltage and if I change the battery will report back here with how it went, as it may help somebody else.

Does anyone know the best way to check a battery out of the car?
 
Many thanks Puggit Auld Jock, a fantastic explanation and information.

I will monitor the voltage and if I change the battery will report back here with how it went, as it may help somebody else.

Does anyone know the best way to check a battery out of the car?
I realized I said above that battery deterioration can be slowed by good practice and maintenance but then said nothing about what that might mean in practice. With access to individual cells on modern batteries being very difficult you can't easily check electrolyte levels - although often the case is semi transparent so you can see the fluid level even if there's not much you can then do about it if it's low. I understand sealed modern batteries have a slightly different composition to their electrolyte to reduce gassing so they shouldn't loose much during a normal lifetime and you shouldn't expect to need to top them up anyway.

Maintenance? One of the most neglected components on many cars is the battery. How often do you open someone's bonnet and the battery top is absolutely filthy? A dirty battery top allows moisture to accumulate which creates a path between the battery terminals and allows the battery to, very slowly, discharge. So keeping the top of your battery clean is a must. As is looking for corrosion on the terminals - often a greenish white crusty deposit. If you see this you really need to remove the terminal and clean up both the battery post and terminal. Tools like this work pretty well and are not expensive: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20375931...CBBxOElelYgKzJvN39tJZSrmTvTz8RFxoCHwwQAvD_BwE
Here's a video showing one in use:

Having done that and got a nice shiny metal to metal contact I like to neutralize any existing "gunge" by sprinkling a little baking powder over the terminal and then cleaning it off with an old toothbrush dipped in lemon juice. This completely gets rid of any lingering corrosive. Now reassemble the terminal and give it a light coating of terminal protector - which can be bought in spray cans or manually applied grease - which will stop further problems. (Simple petroleum jelly - Vaseline - works very well too). If the car is quite new and/or has no signs of corrosion on the terminals, it's worth applying some terminal protector anyway.

If you're going to disconnect a battery terminal there are two big problems you can quite easily avoid if you know about them. First, and probably most important, always disconnect the negative terminal first and reconnect it last. This is because if you tackle the positive terminal with the negative still connected to ground then if you inadvertently touch a metal part of the car with the tool whilst undoing the positive terminal then the tool will complete the circuit and cause a massive short. The tool might get so hot it burns your hand, the sparks could ignite battery gasses and blow it up! but even more expensively, you might cause damage to electronic components. So negative off first and on last. You also need to be aware that disconnecting batteries on modern cars is fraught with problems because some of the electronics need to be permanently powered on. So simply disconnecting a battery terminal can cause stuff like window winders, central locking and many other things, to stop working as they should until reprogrammed. This can be very easily avoided by connecting a "saver" to the diagnostic port: Amazon product ASIN B098SWMF5H You can get ones that connect to the cigar lighter socket but on many cars you need to have the ignition turned on to complete the circuit and it's too easy to forget to do this so you can connect it to the battery terminals (or a slave battery) plug it in and forget to turn the ign on. Whereupon everything "dies" as you disconnect the vehicle battery. Much more fullproof with the Diagnostic port connector:

If you want to explore battery maintenance in more depth try you tube and google, there's lots of advice. but if you keep your terminals in good condition and the battery clean you're more than half way there.

Then there's "good practice". In simple terms this concerns keeping the battery well charged. Modern charging systems are pretty good at charging the battery but if you're only doing short journeys all the time it's not giving it a fair chance. A good run out from time to time will ensure the battery gets a good charge and also is very good for the engine, especially it's oil, which tends to collect contaminants like unburnt fuel and condensation. If the engine is allowed to get nicely up to temperature and that includes the oil which on an "average" engine will take about 3 times longer to get up to temperature than the coolant does! - many people don't know that - then stuff like condensation and unburnt fuel will be vapourized and pass out of the engine through the breather system. This is one of the reasons why you shouldn't ignore oil changes even if you do a very low annual mileage.

It's a good idea to check standing battery voltage from time to time because a fully charged battery will sulphate much more slowly than a well charged one. One of the worst things you can do to a lead acid battery is not use it. They like to be "worked". So, if we're going to check it with a voltmeter what are we looking for? Well, first thing is, don't be "frightened" to use a voltmeter. A voltmeter has almost infinite resistance so it passes no discernable current and can't damage anything, unlike an ammeter with which you can do no end of wicked things! So you're going to apply the positive (red) probe of the meter to the positive (red +) battery terminal and the negative (black) probe to the negative (black -) terminal of the battery. Don't worry if you do connect them wrong way round because most digital meters have protection - most will just show the reading with - in front if you do this. So what are you looking for. Well, if the engine is running the alternator will be charging the battery and you'll likely see somewhere around 13.5 to 14.5 volts. This may seem strange though because this is a 12 volt battery isn't it? Well yes, but actually a 12 volt lead acid battery actually makes about 2.1 to 2.2 volts per cell and they have 6 cells, so, in theory a fully charged 12 volt car battery should show about 13 volts. Nothing in this world is perfect though so, in real life, what we get is around 12.5 to 12.8 volts BUT you need to let the battery rest for at least an overnight after the engine has run for the battery to equalize it's charge. (The surface of the plates react with the acid so can assume a higher state of charge then deeper into the plate - called surface charge - and you need to let this surface charge disipate into the depth of the plate to get a true reading). So, if you've been running the car then check it first thing next day for a meaningful reading. Of course modern cars have permanently live systems which pull current all the time - one reason why sometimes your car won't start when you come back from your annual holiday - so if you leave it for say, a week without starting before checking it don't expect a meaningful reading. As a general guide an open circuit voltage (that is a battery not connected to anything) will read about 12.6 volts after resting, around 12 volts when half charged and 11 volts when three quarters discharged.

The trouble arises when you try ascertain a battery's condition using simply a voltmeter to take these readings. A battery with quite severely sulphated plates can often be charged up well and when checked with just a voltmeter - remember the voltmeter doesn't actually consume any electricity - will display good figure (see above) but when you try to use that battery on a vehicle it won't turn the engine over. This is because with large areas of the surface of the plates sulphated what you have in effect is a very small battery because much of the plate surface area is incapable of reacting and therefore ineffective.

So now to your last question - How to check the battery when out of the car? You can start off by putting a voltmeter on it and seeing if you're getting at least somewhere over 12 volts. This tells you whether the battery is accepting a charge. If the figure is low you'll need to charge it and check it again before knowing if it's worth going any further. If you think the battery may be Ok then you need to find out what condition the plates are in and whether they are reacting with the electrolyte satisfactorily. You can do this the age old "primitive" way of whacking a large load on it. Simplest way to do this is to put it in a vehicle, pull the fuel pump fuse so the engine can't start (this may set a trouble code) and try cranking the engine. If it cranks well the battery is probably good (although there can be some problems this won't detect - like internal plate shorts for instance which can cause a slow discharge) You can simulate doing this cranking test with an old style load tester: https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cla...qPn9ZT9sK6-VjL8nh7RoC6bIQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds There's you tube videos if you want to see one in action. It was an early version of this with which I learned to test batteries and it works quite well if you know what you're looking for the gauge to show you. Now a days there are sophisticated electronic testers which, I think, pass a low current through the battery and measure internal cell resistance. The one I fancy is the TOPDON BT200 - Is it you PB who recently bought one? These seem to be safe to use even when the battery is still connected to the car whilst I'd maybe think twice before using the old heavy load tester type what with all the electronics just waiting for an excuse to cost me a fortune! Trouble is I so far haven't managed to make a good enough case to Mrs J for funds to be allocated!
 
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Right I managed to find my small voltmeter that plugs into the 12v ciggy socket.
Whilst stationary and engine off it settles at 12.1v.
Whilst driving at around 30-40 mph it reads 13.8 volts occasionally 13.7v.
When going at 50-60 it reaches 14v and 14.1v

Can I assume the battery is ok or does this just tell me the alternator is ok or both?
 
If I take the battery off the car will I lose anything e.g. Radio, windows etc. I am thinking of taking it off /disconnecting and seeing how it fairs with one of those older battery testers
 
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