Technical Clutch issues?

[Dazz3r]

Hi everyone,

I have recently come into a little bit of a problem with gear selection/clutch...

Frustratingly my 1998 Fiat Ducato Autotrail (43000 miles) has just gone through an MOT, only failing on the horn. I have done various bits and pieces over the last two to three years of owning her. Brake master cylinder, starting motor, nsf caliper, cam belt etc, and generally I try my best to keep on top of the jobs as much as I can.

The latest problem I have, is the fact I can't find 1st or reverse gear. It doesn't feel like the clutch has changed as far as the pressure or travel, but when I try to put into gear I can feel the gears crunching, or starting to crunce. I can feel the gearbox spinning almost through the gear stick? (If that makes sense)..... and so I obviously stop there. So clutch not engaging. So squeeling, prior to this, no burning, no judder or slipping.

Very frustrating, and no doubt it will be expensive...luckily I wasn't driving at the time as this could have been a whole lot worse I guess.

Could this be the clutch master cylinder? Or something a whole lot worse?

What checks, if any could I do myself before contemplating a recovery service to recover to a garage for repair?

Is there anyway I could drive without knackering the gearbox totally?

Any advice or help would be really appreciated. :0)

Thank you very much.

Darren

 

[anshul]

Similar problem happened to my 2001 fiat palio (15000 Km).

First check how much clutch lever is rotating when clutch lever is pressed.

In my case, i just removed clutch slave cylinder, cleaned it using brake oil and fine sand paper.

Then i connected the slave cylinder to the clutch fluid pipe and used the slave cylinder itself to suck the fluid out through it.
(Pressed its piston inside with bleed screw open and pulled the piston out while keeping the bleed screw closed with finger.)

 

[Communicator]

Hi everyone,

I have recently come into a little bit of a problem with gear selection/clutch...

Frustratingly my 1998 Fiat Ducato Autotrail (43000 miles) has just gone through an MOT, only failing on the horn. I have done various bits and pieces over the last two to three years of owning her. Brake master cylinder, starting motor, nsf caliper, cam belt etc, and generally I try my best to keep on top of the jobs as much as I can.

The latest problem I have, is the fact I can't find 1st or reverse gear. It doesn't feel like the clutch has changed as far as the pressure or travel, but when I try to put into gear I can feel the gears crunching, or starting to crunce. I can feel the gearbox spinning almost through the gear stick? (If that makes sense)..... and so I obviously stop there. So clutch not engaging. So squeeling, prior to this, no burning, no judder or slipping.

Very frustrating, and no doubt it will be expensive...luckily I wasn't driving at the time as this could have been a whole lot worse I guess.

Could this be the clutch master cylinder? Or something a whole lot worse?

What checks, if any could I do myself before contemplating a recovery service to recover to a garage for repair?

Is there anyway I could drive without knackering the gearbox totally?

Any advice or help would be really appreciated. :0)

Thank you very much.

Darren

Hydraulic operation of the clutch was only introduced with the x244 Ducato model in 2002. Your x230 will be operated by a cable, which may need adjusting.
@bugsymike has a wealth of experience, and will most probably be able to provide more advice.

 

[brokendonkey]

does it shift into gear fine when the engine is not running?
if it does and the clutch biting point is really high when driving normally then it probably wants a new clutch although i would try adjusting the cable first if it has any adjustment.

 

[bugsymike]

Hydraulic operation of the clutch was only introduced with the x244 Ducato model in 2002. Your x230 will be operated by a cable, which may need adjusting.
@bugsymike has a wealth of experience, and will most probably be able to provide more advice.

Too kind.
With cable clutch adjustment of this type with manual adjustmentthe older ones were checked for freeplay at the clutch release arm on the gearbox, generally if an 1/8th to a 1/4 of an inch of freeplay at the arm they were OK, later ones that were still manually adjusted were set sp that the brake and clutch pedals were roughly the same height, so in effect your foot could slide across from one to the other, as they wear out the clutch pedal starts to lift above the brake pedal eventually to the point that it reaches a stop with the pedal noticeably higher before it starts to slip.
On the other hand if the clutch pedal is lower than the brake pedal, if this has developed and not just a case of poor adjustment then it can be if the cable is starting to break or something internally with the clutch it's self in the bell housing.
Then on the Sofim 2.5 and 2.8 engines you have the additional pleasures of whether the clutch operation is a "pull off" or "pull on" type.
If no obvious issue on the outside then you are back to as mentioned clutch it's self, if it goes into gear when stationary but not when running then it can be oil on the clutch friction/centre plate or pressure plate breaking or damaged, so gearbox out job.

 

[Dazz3r]

Too kind.
With cable clutch adjustment of this type with manual adjustmentthe older ones were checked for freeplay at the clutch release arm on the gearbox, generally if an 1/8th to a 1/4 of an inch of freeplay at the arm they were OK, later ones that were still manually adjusted were set sp that the brake and clutch pedals were roughly the same height, so in effect your foot could slide across from one to the other, as they wear out the clutch pedal starts to lift above the brake pedal eventually to the point that it reaches a stop with the pedal noticeably higher before it starts to slip.
On the other hand if the clutch pedal is lower than the brake pedal, if this has developed and not just a case of poor adjustment then it can be if the cable is starting to break or something internally with the clutch it's self in the bell housing.
Then on the Sofim 2.5 and 2.8 engines you have the additional pleasures of whether the clutch operation is a "pull off" or "pull on" type.
If no obvious issue on the outside then you are back to as mentioned clutch it's self, if it goes into gear when stationary but not when running then it can be oil on the clutch friction/centre plate or pressure plate breaking or damaged, so gearbox out job.

Thank you for all your comments and help, I will take a look at the engine off gear change in the morning, see if that works and report back.

Incidently, the grinding only seems to occur in 1st and reverse gear. Perhaps there's a perfectly obvious explanation to this, but it doesn't seem to want to go in any other gear when engine running.

I will test tomorrow as you have advised.
Thanks again.

 

[bugsymike]

Thank you for all your comments and help, I will take a look at the engine off gear change in the morning, see if that works and report back.

Incidently, the grinding only seems to occur in 1st and reverse gear. Perhaps there's a perfectly obvious explanation to this, but it doesn't seem to want to go in any other gear when engine running.

I will test tomorrow as you have advised.
Thanks again.

Just a small point, has it been in water or left standing for a while, in which case the clutch may have rusted to the flywheel.
If lucky and with engine warmed up , then with engine off, put vehicle in first gear with handbrake on firm, clutch pedal to the floor and try and start the vehicle.
If lucky? It will make a slight jerk and then whilst clutch pedal still down the clutch will release and engine will rev up up and clutch has freed off.
If unlucky vehicle will carry off down the road with clutch still engaged even though pedal to the floor, assuming you survive this then it will involve gearbox out to free off clutch .
It sounds a bit brutal, but I have done this many times over the years, one time with a nearly new Rover in a car showroom between other cars!
If you don't think handbrake very good or in a crowded area put blocks under the wheels so it cannot shoot off down the road.
By the way, all at your own liability.