Technical Bearing noise from crankshaft pulley? 😬

[zoltanpapp82]

Hello Fiat Owners,

recently I'm noticing a weird noise from my car, kind like a bearing/ rotating noise... The time has come to change the timing belt, tensioner and water pump, but the sound did not go away... I made a short video of it - accessory belt removed to close out that part. I know that resonator part of exhaust should be changed, but I think this sound is different. Could you give some feedback, what it could be, is it critical, or normal for a 17 years old car?

Thank you,
Zoltan

 

[bugsymike]

Hello Fiat Owners,

recently I'm noticing a weird noise from my car, kind like a bearing/ rotating noise... The time has come to change the timing belt, tensioner and water pump, but the sound did not go away... I made a short video of it - accessory belt removed to close out that part. I know that resonator part of exhaust should be changed, but I think this sound is different. Could you give some feedback, what it could be, is it critical, or normal for a 17 years old car?

Thank you,
Zoltan
View attachment 474737

To me it sound like a belt too tight around water pump or some other guide bearing.

 

[zoltanpapp82]

Hi,

so not the tension is high, but the belt is wide to the wheels?

 

[bugsymike]

Hi,

so not the tension is high, but the belt is wide to the wheels?

I would have said the tension was too tight, in my opinion.
If it was before belt changed I would have said waterpump bearings and possibly expecyted a sign of water leak from the hole below the waterpump casting as a clue.
Having jusy changed the timing belt all guide and tensioner bearings then assuming none faulty I would say timing belt tension too tight.
If you take the cover off and carefully use a long screwdriver as a stethoscope it should be possible to locate the noise, also on many modern tensioners they have guide arrows that have to line up which may show if belt is too tight.
If it was me I would check all that and then maybe try very slightly backing off the tensionioner and resecuring it, then check if noise changed.
Some people have mentioned certain makes of timing belt being noisy, but personally I would check what I have described.

 

[jackwhoo]

Possible crank pulley needs to be replaced? Though they usually knock when worn.

 

[zoltanpapp82]

Thank for both of your responses, and The Panda Nut for picking a side with bugsymike. I'll post update when I'm done with it.

 

[bugsymike]

Thank for both of your responses, and The Panda Nut for picking a side with bugsymike. I'll post update when I'm done with it.

No picking sides. More a case of "Great minds think alike or Fools seldom differ".

 

[xarenwo]

Start the a/c and see if noise gets reduced/eliminated. Mine makes similar noise and it's from the a/c clutch/pulley. All fiat cars I know have the same noise coming from a/c compressor clutch/pulley, fiat 500 1.2, fiat tipo 1.4 16v 95hp from 2018, try and let me know.
If you want to be sure, just remove the accessory belt and run the engine, see if the noise is still there, it's not recommended to run the engine without the accessory belt but I've done it before and nothing happened (idk why, I just heard it it's not ok)

 

[bugsymike]

Start the a/c and see if noise gets reduced/eliminated. Mine makes similar noise and it's from the a/c clutch/pulley. All fiat cars I know have the same noise coming from a/c compressor clutch/pulley, fiat 500 1.2, fiat tipo 1.4 16v 95hp from 2018, try and let me know.
If you want to be sure, just remove the accessory belt and run the engine, see if the noise is still there, it's not recommended to run the engine without the accessory belt but I've done it before and nothing happened (idk why, I just heard it it's not ok)

I agree a common issue on many cars, noisy air con clutch.
However OP has mentioned at start of post that he took auxillary belt off to test.

 

[xarenwo]

I agree a common issue on many cars, noisy air con clutch.
However OP has mentioned at start of post that he took auxillary belt off to test.

Oh, I missed that part; that's what happens when you go on FiatForum at 3 am.
We can exclude the A/C clutch then. My question is: why would the crankshaft pulley make noise? It's a solid piece of metal, it does not have a rubber part like on my other car which is a Renault 1.9 DCI, that one has to be changed every time you do the timing belt because the rubber gets bad and then it can even break and the accessory belt will go under the timing belt and you need to change the whole engine because of that pulley.
In this case, though, it's a solid piece of metal, so nothing can really break from everyday use, no?
If the timing belt is too tight, there is usually a continuous whine. This sounds very similar to my 1.4 TJet, but, as I said, it drops further when I start the a/c in my case.
EDIT:
The problem with certain type of timing belt on this engine is usually heard between 1500-2000rpm if I remember right. Everyone says to use original Fiat kit, I used INA kit and I have no whine from the belt, but the belt aligned itself very close to the outside edge of the camshaft pulley, I saw multiple vidoes on youtube with belts like mine. I think it depends on the offset of the waterpump pulley because it's the only one with flanges that can align anything.
The service manual for this engine says to undo the camshaft pulley when tightening the timing belt tensioner. Did Zoltan do that ? Obviously after locking the engine with the specified tools. If you don't undo the bolt of the camshaft pulley, when you tighten the tensioner the belt is pulled from the camshaft pulley and stays forced anti clockwise, it's like putting it half tooth off timing. With the bolt undone, you can see the pulley slightly moving. Then you should tigthen temporarily the tensioner, remove all tools and turn the engine a few times to check if the belt self aligns and tension is right when the engine is again timed with the tools. When you do the final torque of the tensioner, use the tool to keep the tensioner steady, otherwise the torque force will tension the belt more than it was when you checked.

 

[bugsymike]

Oh, I missed that part; that's what happens when you go on FiatForum at 3 am.
We can exclude the A/C clutch then. My question is: why would the crankshaft pulley make noise? It's a solid piece of metal, it does not have a rubber part like on my other car which is a Renault 1.9 DCI, that one has to be changed every time you do the timing belt because the rubber gets bad and then it can even break and the accessory belt will go under the timing belt and you need to change the whole engine because of that pulley.
In this case, though, it's a solid piece of metal, so nothing can really break from everyday use, no?
If the timing belt is too tight, there is usually a continuous whine. This sounds very similar to my 1.4 TJet, but, as I said, it drops further when I start the a/c in my case.
The problem with certain type of timing belt on this engine is usually heard between 1500-2000rpm if I remember right.
The service manual for this engine says to undo the camshaft pulley when tightening the timing belt tensioner. Did Zoltan do that ? Obviously after locking the engine with the specified tools. If you don't undo the bolt of the camshaft pulley, when you tighten the tensioner the belt is pulled from the camshaft pulley and stays forced anti clockwise, it's like putting it half tooth off timing. With the bolt undone, you can see the pulley slightly moving. Then you should tigthen temporarily the tension, remove all tools and turn the engine a few times to check if the belt self aligns and tension is right when the engine is again timed with the tools. When you do the final torque of the tensioner, use the tool to keep the tensioner steady, otherwise the torque force will tension the belt more than it was when you checked.

I miss things at any time of day, my excuse is 72 years old.
Have you listened to OPs video?
My feeling is cambelt tension, although others at different times have mentioned certain makes of belt generate noises.
I have found even after correctly following all fitting instructions and a complete good quality kit include guides, tensioner and water pump, that some do make a noise and that slightly backing off tension has cured, not anyway slack, just eased back a little.
I would never claim to be a Fiat expert as worked on all makes of vehicles since 1969 until retirement, so just general knowledge.

 

[xarenwo]

I miss things at any time of day, my excuse is 72 years old.
Have you listened to OPs video?
My feeling is cambelt tension, although others at different times have mentioned certain makes of belt generate noises.
I have found even after correctly following all fitting instructions and a complete good quality kit include guides, tensioner and water pump, that some do make a noise and that slightly backing off tension has cured, not anyway slack, just eased back a little.
I would never claim to be a Fiat expert as worked on all makes of vehicles since 1969 until retirement, so just general knowledge.

I have listened one more time with headphones and I can say the frequency of his noise is faster than mine. Mine is slower by at least twice and it's not always the same, this indeed does sound like either the belt or a failed bearing from factory. If it would be something inside the engine, I don't think the engine would have ran anymore by now. It can happen that parts are defective, I changed 2 skf timing kits on my Renault because I always used SKF and the waterpump failed after 2000 and 8000km. I then put gates, same method, installed by me, and I've done 65000km now without any problems. So things can be broken from factory, just like the Concentric Slave Cylinder on my 1.4 TJET that was throwing all the brake oil inside the gearbox and under the car, beautiful surprise for me after putting the gearbox back and everything else, at least I should have tested it without putting driveshafts, battery support, starter motor, and everything back (I tested the 2nd time). So, in the end, it happens. Hopefully, he will find the problem and let us know what it was. Anyway, you are definitely more experienced than I am, so I will stop here with suggestions in this case.

EDIT:
Sorry I do have one suggestion, is the noise from the right side from sure ? Because it could also be the flywheel, it transmits the noise everywhere. Zoltan has to put someone in the car and try to press the clutch, engage it in gear, or start/stop the engine while listening, it could be that.
I changed my flywheel that wasn't making noises but had 160.000km to a new one, measured it, it was in Luk's standards on the lower side, so perfect, but the new one is making a bit of noise. It's like a thin metal wire hitting something, so definitely the springs inside, but it does not rattle, shake or anything else. Is the noise the same when the engine is cold and hot ? Try to listen in the gearbox area.

 

[bugsymike]

I have listened one more time with headphones and I can say the frequency of his noise is faster than mine. Mine is slower by at least twice and it's not always the same, this indeed does sound like either the belt or a failed bearing from factory. If it would be something inside the engine, I don't think the engine would have ran anymore by now. It can happen that parts are defective, I changed 2 skf timing kits on my Renault because I always used SKF and the waterpump failed after 2000 and 8000km. I then put gates, same method, installed by me, and I've done 65000km now without any problems. So things can be broken from factory, just like my Concentric Slave Cylinder on my 1.4 TJET that was throwing all the brake oil inside the gearbox and under the car, beautiful surprise for me after putting the gearbox back and everything else, at least I should have tested it without putting driveshafts, battery support, starter motor, and everything back. So, in the end, it happens. Hopefully, he will find the problem and let us know what it was. Anyway, you are definitely more experienced than I am, so I will stop here with suggestions in this case.

Please don't stop with suggestions, no one knows everything, although some think they do.
I agree about concentric clutch issues, a most stupid idea to put something that has a limited life span so inaccessible!
Then to have it fail on first test.
These days even brands that you have trusted for years tend to farm out production to the cheapest company and just put their badge on it.
I recently ordered two very expensive O rings for an oil cooler on a 1.6 MJ Fiat Doblo from the Fiat dealers, they arrived in a sealed Fiat bag (£37) and in the small print on bag was marked PRC (Peoples Republic of China) subsequently I bought a Loctite O ring making kit, sceptical at first, but it works fine.

 

[xarenwo]

Please don't stop with suggestions, no one knows everything, although some think they do.
I agree about concentric clutch issues, a most stupid idea to put something that has a limited life span so inaccessible!
Then to have it fail on first test.
These days even brands that you have trusted for years tend to farm out production to the cheapest company and just put their badge on it.
I recently ordered two very expensive O rings for an oil cooler on a 1.6 MJ Fiat Doblo from the Fiat dealers, they arrived in a sealed Fiat bag (£37) and in the small print on bag was marked PRC (Peoples Republic of China) subsequently I bought a Loctite O ring making kit, sceptical at first, but it works fine.

In the end, I did make another suggestion.
I had lots of defective parts on my Fiat Bravo rebuild. I got it very cheap and I rebuilt it because they are blocking my euro 5 diesel car because of EU regulations, so I just wanted a comfortable, safe, and kind of reliable or at least easy to fix car to use. It was a good choice, I like the power, good for travelling, comfortable, plenty of space in the engine bay to work on (Search Renault Scenic III 1.9 DCI engine bay in comparison ).

 

[bugsymike]

In the end, I did make another suggestion.
I had lots of defective parts on my Fiat Bravo rebuild. I got it very cheap and I rebuilt it because they are blocking my euro 5 diesel car because of EU regulations, so I just wanted a comfortable, safe, and kind of reliable or at least easy to fix car to use. It was a good choice, I like the power, good for travelling, comfortable, plenty of space in the engine bay to work on (Search Renault Scenic III 1.9 DCI engine bay in comparison ).

Although I have had many Renaults and other makes in the past but anything with a modern Renault engine I don't want, including in the vans.
We used to complain about working on some makes in the old days, but all were much easier to access.