Technical Advice required

[Gaz Archer]

Hi everyone, just joined so be nice lol.
Recently purchased a Fiat Ducato 2.8jtd Autotrail Mohican SE 2004. It came with a mileage of 43k and a comprehensive service history and had just had a full service, new tyres, and importantly timing belt and water pump change. Problem is that after just 200 miles the timing belt failed. It looks like the tensioner has come loose. I was only doing about 20mph when the engine just stopped. I pulled over to try and restart but on turning the key just got an awful noise so stopped quickly. Looked under the bonnet and could see the timing belt cover had a split in it. I put my hand inside the split and felt that the belt was loose and could see the tensioner just sitting there not where it should be. I also found a shoulder washer and a stud with stripped threads. (see pics) My guess is that when they unloosened the tensioner the retaining stud also came loose at the block and it was never tightened up correctly, worked itself completely free the following 200 miles. My questions are, is the garage that replaced the timing belt liable for this, and what could be the damage. The garage isn't being very helpful and have said that they will put a new belt on and see what the damage is. They said they are will to help out but at my cost. Also I am of the opinion that to fully see if any damage has been done you will need to remove the cylinder head to check for bent valves and damage to the pistons and bores. Can I insist that they do this, are they to blame for not fitting belt correctly, and what should I do if I'm not happy with what they propose. Problem also compounded by the fact I brought it from a commercial vehicle dealer who farmed the service and timing belt/water pump change out to another garage

 

[bugsymike]

Hi everyone, just joined so be nice lol.
Recently purchased a Fiat Ducato 2.8jtd Autotrail Mohican SE 2004. It came with a mileage of 43k and a comprehensive service history and had just had a full service, new tyres, and importantly timing belt and water pump change. Problem is that after just 200 miles the timing belt failed. It looks like the tensioner has come loose. I was only doing about 20mph when the engine just stopped. I pulled over to try and restart but on turning the key just got an awful noise so stopped quickly. Looked under the bonnet and could see the timing belt cover had a split in it. I put my hand inside the split and felt that the belt was loose and could see the tensioner just sitting there not where it should be. I also found a shoulder washer and a stud with stripped threads. (see pics) My guess is that when they unloosened the tensioner the retaining stud also came loose at the block and it was never tightened up correctly, worked itself completely free the following 200 miles. My questions are, is the garage that replaced the timing belt liable for this, and what could be the damage. The garage isn't being very helpful and have said that they will put a new belt on and see what the damage is. They said they are will to help out but at my cost. Also I am of the opinion that to fully see if any damage has been done you will need to remove the cylinder head to check for bent valves and damage to the pistons and bores. Can I insist that they do this, are they to blame for not fitting belt correctly, and what should I do if I'm not happy with what they propose. Problem also compounded by the fact I brought it from a commercial vehicle dealer who farmed the service and timing belt/water pump change out to another garageView attachment 448878View attachment 448879View attachment 448880

I have rebuilt several of these Sofim 8140.43S engines, mostly in Iveco Daily's, though at 71 I am not doing anymore.
In general they are totally reliable engines and the times that failure is reported, are usually after a cam belt replacement job.
If you look through Forum you will find you are not alone!
I think your diagnosis is most likely spot on. Most mechanics manage to time them correctly as it is a fairly simple job, where the let themselves down is not ensuring that tensioner stud is secure and the other common fault is when finishing off and replacing the plastic cover the stepped washer is fitted wrongly so as they secure the nut holding the cover it disturbs the timing belt tensioner causing it to work loose.
The problem is that due to the camshaft pressing directly on the valve /shim bucket etc. damage load is directly to the piston and con rod , unlikely many modern engine where the rockers break and prevent more serious damage.
My advice would be to get an independent engineer along with a solicitor unless you are offered full recompense from them immediately.
I would also say from stripping those Sofim engines following cambelt issues, every one where valves met pistons the con rod on that piston was bent, so if head was "rebuilt" and piston "cleaned up" the engine will never run right as that piston will be about 2 mm further down the cylinder bore compared with it's matching partner.
So if yours is this engine number make sure it is an identical replacement in good order or a fully rebuilt engine with legal warranty for 6-12 months by a well known engine reconditioner.
Personally as you only recently purchased the vehicle I would press for a full refund as it is likely to be off the road for many months whilst they decide who to blame.

 

[Gaz Archer]

I have rebuilt several of these Sofim 8140.43S engines, mostly in Iveco Daily's, though at 71 I am not doing anymore.
In general they are totally reliable engines and the times that failure is reported, are usually after a cam belt replacement job.
If you look through Forum you will find you are not alone!
I think your diagnosis is most likely spot on. Most mechanics manage to time them correctly as it is a fairly simple job, where the let themselves down is not ensuring that tensioner stud is secure and the other common fault is when finishing off and replacing the plastic cover the stepped washer is fitted wrongly so as they secure the nut holding the cover it disturbs the timing belt tensioner causing it to work loose.
The problem is that due to the camshaft pressing directly on the valve /shim bucket etc. damage load is directly to the piston and con rod , unlikely many modern engine where the rockers break and prevent more serious damage.
My advice would be to get an independent engineer along with a solicitor unless you are offered full recompense from them immediately.
I would also say from stripping those Sofim engines following cambelt issues, every one where valves met pistons the con rod on that piston was bent, so if head was "rebuilt" and piston "cleaned up" the engine will never run right as that piston will be about 2 mm further down the cylinder bore compared with it's matching partner.
So if yours is this engine number make sure it is an identical replacement in good order or a fully rebuilt engine with legal warranty for 6-12 months by a well known engine reconditioner.
Personally as you only recently purchased the vehicle I would press for a full refund as it is likely to be off the road for many months whilst they decide who to blame.

Thanks for the reply/advice, I had a concern that there maybe other damage that can not be seen by taking the head off. I am now thinking to push for a refund, although the trader is on holiday till Wednesday so will be having this difficult discussion then. I have spoken to citizens advice and it seems the law is on my side, though this wont make it any easier.
Thanks again for your time and advice it is very much appreciated.

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks for the reply/advice, I had a concern that there maybe other damage that can not be seen by taking the head off. I am now thinking to push for a refund, although the trader is on holiday till Wednesday so will be having this difficult discussion then. I have spoken to citizens advice and it seems the law is on my side, though this wont make it any easier.
Thanks again for your time and advice it is very much appreciated.

Do you have RAC or AA Legal Cover?
Traders are experts at wriggling in these circumstances. Did you pay the Dealer or the garage for the cambelt job?
From experience I can almost 100% say if valve have met the pistons, to put it right involves a total strip down and new con rod, plus all the obvious valve damage at the top end.
So if at all possible get your money back as you will not be using the vehicle for a long time and even then no guarantee as to rebuild quality.

 

[Gaz Archer]

Do you have RAC or AA Legal Cover?
Traders are experts at wriggling in these circumstances. Did you pay the Dealer or the garage for the cambelt job?

The service and timing belt/water pump had been changed prior to me buying the motorhome. I paid by debit card so I can ask the bank to initiate something called charge back, so hopefully I can get my money back.