Technical 93 2.0SX non start (no spark)

[a73uk]

Long story short, Last year my parents got a stilo, they gave me their 93 tempra 2.0 SW which had been getting tempra-mental (lol). 2 Days later the Stilo was returned as it was rubbish & I gave them back the Tempra. 8 months of deciding & mind changing later, I found them a nice Volvo V50 estate that they finally agreed on, they picked it up last Sunday.

We drove the 40 miles to the Volvo dealer in the Tempra & she went fine, in fact Dad gave her a final boot & hit 110mph before Mum had a go at him!

We then drove back & they dumped the Tempra at mine.

Today I had to get a load of car parts from east London. Jumped in the Tempra, started fine, went to the petrol station (1 stop & start), then went on to the days running around.

I`d guess I`ve stopped & started the engine about 8-10 times this afternoon & went back via my parents to drop the parts off.

3 hours later I decided to pop down the road, & guess what....

No start...

Now its done this several times in the last 5 years, maybe 5 times in the last year, & no one, me, 2 Fiat dealers, 2 Fiat specialists, green flag & the AA, have EVER been able to work out whats causing it...

Recent repacements include an Alternator, TDC sensor, dizzy cap, rotor, plugs & leads.

There is NO spark from the plug leads, there is a spark from the coil.

I checked the dizzy connections including joints under the screen, those relays, coil connector, ignition module connections, earths under coil, TDC connections, ECU plug removed & refixed, fuse box & all relays `jiggled`, ignition key rear swich plug etc etc etc

This is a pre-facelift 93 2.0i without an immobiliser.

Unfortunately I dont have my electrical tester on me so I cant check the dizzy wiring etc for consistancy.

Any ideas?

What are the 2 relays on the bulkhead under the plastic cover & what is the upside down blue ignition module looking thing? its got 1 module behind the coil as it is!

Cheers

 

[sumplug]

Does the fuel pump run for a few seconds to pressurise the fuel rail, when you turn the ignition on? If not, you have a faulty/dirty crank sensor.

Andy.

 

[a73uk]

Hi Andy,

You do hear the fuel pump for 4-5 seconds when you put the ignition on, I assume its presurising the rail, however, there is no spark, so any amount of fuel/WD/easy start wont make a difference.

I get the distinct impression this is a ignition hardware/electrical problem.


After posting yesterday, I went out & tried again, wouldnt have it, walked up the road to see a neighbour, came back after 1/2 an hour & tried again...

Guess what...

She started!

This was some 5 hours after I`d used her last....

So I left her running, ran in, said bye to Mum & drove home. Couldnt park when I got home so I parked over a neghbours drive, 20 minutes later someone moved, I went out to move the car & again, she started fine.

I was going to lend the Tempra to a friend who`s been borrowing my Uno (& is having difficulty driving it as he doesnt fit!) so I can have the Uno back(I`ve not driven it since I`ve got it!), but with this problem I cant be lending the Tempra to anyone.

You just cant rely on it which is a shame as she`s absolutely mint & has only covered 73,000 miles in the 16 years my parents have had her.

I cant believe this problem is unique to this car, especially as its igntition system is exactly the same as alot of other Fiats & Lancias of the time.
:bang:

The other alternative I was considering is fitting dizzy-less ignition from a coupe/marea, anyone attempted it?

Cheers!

Does the fuel pump run for a few seconds to pressurise the fuel rail, when you turn the ignition on? If not, you have a faulty/dirty crank sensor.

Andy.

 

[arno]

Please check the gound connection under the battery it tends to rot and connect only when it wants to.....temprament... Also the coil or enhancer located below it might be subject to temprature changes, resistance rises when the temprature rises. Imagine running through a pipe and someone heats it up or makes it narrower it makes it harder to run, you get more resistance. check check double check. Last time my tipo didn't start it was a faulty coil, the was a spark, but not strong enough to "jump the gap" in the distributor, under pressure this sometimes also occurs in the cilinder itself. You see the sparkplugs sparking so that can't be it right ? Wrong !

 

[a73uk]

Hi Arno,

Thanks for the reply,

I did check & clean that earth point when it happened, unfortunately it made no difference.

I also think it is most likely to be igntion module or coil problems, I`m going to try to get hold of a distributor or dizzy pick up, a coil & an ignition module.

The problem is, the car is only worth £4-500 on a good day(even though its nearly as good as new), its had £130 spent on it in the last 2 weeks on the alternator/distributor cap/rotor arm & around £500 in the last 6 months on tyres, shock absorbers, plug leads, a wishbone, roll bar bushes etc, I havent checked prices at Fiat, but I`m guessing the distributor & ignition module will be over £350, plus £20 for an aftermarket coil.

It simply doesnt add up, so I`m going to have to try to locate new old stock from ebay or similar (although I have been looking & havent found anything yet).

I could get second hand parts, but the chances are, they`ll be as bad or getting as bad as what I`ve already got!

Even after changing these parts, it may be something else!

:bang:

The only other problems she has are rear calipers as these seem to be binding, the locking motor in the tailgate has died, the tailgate struts are getting stiff & the clock adjusting buttons have fallen into the dashboard!

Thats it! everything else is perfect. Theres no rust, the paint still shines (Dad used to polish her every 3 months), the plastic is still plastic coloured, the seats are literally as new (they`ve had covers on since new), all the electric toys work, the alloys have no corrosion.

Its such a shame, my parents have looked after her, she`s in such good condition throughout that I really dont want to have to sell her for spares or repairs, I feel responsible to make sure she does another 16 years!, but I already have 6 other cars & dont have room for another 1, definately not 1 that I cant rely on!

Fiat made a VERY good car with the Tempra, especially the estate, unfortunately it looks like she`s going to an early grave because of an untracable electrical fault! this is probably why theres already so few Tipos & Tempras left...

It would be useful to have an estate in my collection, all my other cars are useless for moving stuff around, but maybe I should swap her for a nice, simple 1.4 Tipo to use as a runaround instead of the Uno...

Please check the gound connection under the battery it tends to rot and connect only when it wants to.....temprament... Also the coil or enhancer located below it might be subject to temprature changes, resistance rises when the temprature rises. Imagine running through a pipe and someone heats it up or makes it narrower it makes it harder to run, you get more resistance. check check double check. Last time my tipo didn't start it was a faulty coil, the was a spark, but not strong enough to "jump the gap" in the distributor, under pressure this sometimes also occurs in the cilinder itself. You see the sparkplugs sparking so that can't be it right ? Wrong !

 

[arno]

Youre welcome in the Tipo corner mate

 

[fiat1100d]

I havent checked prices at Fiat, but I`m guessing the distributor & ignition module will be over £350, plus £20 for an aftermarket coil.

Check the distributor cap for corrosion of the internal contacts: if it is just the cap that needs to be replaced, it should cost less than 20 €, and the rotating contact should cost less than 10 € (it may be worn). Don't know if they are available in UK, but third party compatible parts cost even less than that.

 

[a73uk]

Hi Fiat 1100d,

If you look back up the thread you will see I`ve said (twice) that the cap & rotor have both been replaced in the last month.

The plan now is to buy a distributor, coil & ignition amplifier, keep them all in the car with the relivent tools & next time it happens, change them 1 at a time.

In theory, this should tell me which is playing up....

In reality it might not as this `problem` seems to come & go anywhere between 3 minutes & 5 hours, so by the time I`ve changed any of the parts, it might have `heeled` itself & start anyway....

If anyone has a KNOWN good distributor, coil, ECU & amplifier, let me know.

Cheers!

Check the distributor cap for corrosion of the internal contacts: if it is just the cap that needs to be replaced, it should cost less than 20 €, and the rotating contact should cost less than 10 € (it may be worn). Don't know if they are available in UK, but third party compatible parts cost even less than that.

 

[fiat1100d]

If you look back up the thread you will see I`ve said (twice) that the cap & rotor have both been replaced in the last month.

I am sorry, must be "dizzy" that means distributor, I am not so aware of these terms

Anyway, I don't think it can be the distributor: the "active part" of it should really be the rotating contact and the cap, I don't think the distributor can be so damaged that the rotor won't rotate.

Is the ignition ECU something like a Magneti Marelli Digiplex or it is embedded into the electronic injection ECU?

 

[a73uk]

Sorry fiat1100d, dizzy is slang for the distributor!

inside the distributor is a pick up (magnetic or optical), this is what sends the signal to the relivent ECU/computer in the same way points used to signal the coil, this pick up could be the fault.

The ignition is Marelli, it has an ignition module on the back of the coil (in front of the battery). these modules can also break down, as can the coil.

Is your 1600 a twin cam engine?

I am sorry, must be "dizzy" that means distributor, I am not so aware of these terms

Anyway, I don't think it can be the distributor: the "active part" of it should really be the rotating contact and the cap, I don't think the distributor can be so damaged that the rotor won't rotate.

Is the ignition ECU something like a Magneti Marelli Digiplex or it is embedded into the electronic injection ECU?

 

[fiat1100d]

Is your 1600 a twin cam engine?

No it isn't, it's single cam... And as far as I can see by reading the posts, the ignition module of twin cam engines must be something completely different than mine.

 

[Ziomike]

I've had this random "no start" problem a couple of times on Tipos and Tempras.
On both cars it was the Tdc sensor, replacing cured the problem.
Later on the Tempra it was the ECU randomly failing (had tried all the other parts), new one was £300 so the car was scrapped.

Spark at the coil but not plugs is strange if the distributor has been changed, sounds like a weak coil or faulty pickup in the distributor.

 

[a73uk]

Ciao Zio Mike,

She`s had 2 TDC pick ups in the last few years & it didnt work.

How did you test the ECU? or was it a case of swap it & see.

I`m thinking Dizzy primerily too. I`m getting a Lancia Dedra 2.0 one & he`s tring to find me an ignition module, coil & ECU too.

As far as the coils concerned, theres a nice single fat spark when turning on the ignition, but thats it, so its like theres no signal beyond initial turn on, which to me points at dizzy pick up/wiring/module or ECU.

Its the cap & rotor thats been changed, not the actual distributor.

cheers

I've had this random "no start" problem a couple of times on Tipos and Tempras.
On both cars it was the Tdc sensor, replacing cured the problem.
Later on the Tempra it was the ECU randomly failing (had tried all the other parts), new one was £300 so the car was scrapped.

Spark at the coil but not plugs is strange if the distributor has been changed, sounds like a weak coil or faulty pickup in the distributor.

 

[Ziomike]

Hi,

I did not test the ECU, a local garage did that. and declared it the problem. I would have replaced it if I was able to find one at a scrappy, but they were like rocking horse poo for availability.

I've since found a company - http://www.ecutesting.com/ - who have been very helpful in fixing my daughters Astra. They list Fiat ecu's here - http://www.ecutesting.com/fiat_ecu_list.html -

The problem is it being an intermittent fault, always a nasty one until it goes bad "properly".

Mike.

 

[a73uk]

Ok, latest news is!

I got a known good used distributor, coil & ignition module from a 92 Lancia Dedra.

When I got them I decided to strip down the distributor to 1. see what was inside that could potentially go wrong & 2. to clean it.

To dismantle it is very simple, the 2 flat headed screws on the sides that hold the cap clips come out, this allows you to remove the front plate, this covers the magnetic pick up.

Further dismantling is simple, everything being held with screws...

On further inspection & checks, I realised the 2 wires going from the plug to the magnetic pick up had been rubbing against the inside of the front plate...

This was on the `new` distributor....

The wires hadnt rubbed though, but the insulation was almost translucent at the point of abbrasion (about 2mm), so it wasnt far off becoming faulty!

I then thoroughly insulated the wires & when I put it back together I shaped the wires to prevent further rubbing.

Now I know what the likely cause is, I intend to check the one on the car in situ, if its worn through I can re-insulate the wires & reshape them without having to remove the distributor! (I have to take the battery out anyway as its flat from sitting for over a month with the alarm on!)

I`ll keep you posted.

Sorry I didnt take pictures of which wires I mean when it was dismantled, but heres a link to a picture to see where the wires are & where they rub:

 

[a73uk]

Re: 93 2.0SX non start (no spark) *Now starting fine!*

Hi all,

Just a small update. Ive lent the Tempra to a friend (the one who was using my Uno but didnt really fit inside it!), he`s been driving it since my last post (about 3 weeks) & has done around 500 miles in her. Shes performing faultlessly & hasnt had any starting issue, in fact its starting better than I can ever remember it starting in the lat 15 years!

I`ve left the spare coil & ignition module in the boot for him in case it does it again, but so far so good

Overall he is impressed with her, the only negatives he finds is the excessive wind & general noise at speed, the rubbery power steering & the 4x4 handling!

He`s impressed at her condition & that virtually everything still works (exceptions being that the sunroof only tilts now, the clock cant be adjusted because the bottons are broken & the boot lock doesnt work with the central locking).

He also recons he`s finding it nearly as economical as the Uno

Also, has anyone got a boot locking solonoid going spare? its a big tubular white one!

Now I can get on with the Uno!