Technical 500 Twinair - annual oil change?

[RobinPJ]

Sometimes you make some really great posts.

This is one of them

And this isn't:

I don't have a picture of my behind readily available but here's one of my knee after mountain biking yesterday

 

[306maxi]

And this isn't:

jeez, I remember that day rather well, that bloody hurt like a bee hatch.

 

[ahmett]

Sometimes you make some really great posts.

This is one of them .



Ahmett, from everything you have posted, I detect a teensy-weensy mismatch between your aspirations for the car, and the way you treat it .

The fact your car is still running at all does rather support Maxi's post .

I treat my car well = )
I may thrash it but only when the engine is hot and i make sure the oil and coolant are fully topped up = )

 

[306maxi]

Sometimes you make some really great posts.

This is one of them .



Ahmett, from everything you have posted, I detect a teensy-weensy mismatch between your aspirations for the car, and the way you treat it .

The fact your car is still running at all does rather support Maxi's post .

Thank you. I just find this pseudo science annoying, firstly the information isn't coming straight from ACEA or another body that knows what it's talking about, it comes from forums and other such unreliable sites.

I post in a facebook group where sad people like myself, bgunn and jrkitching (but not bgunn and jrkitching) debate the merits of things such as whether you should idle your car to warm it up or just get in and drive off, there was a guy who posted just yesterday that he'd been given some bad advice by a BMW forum sticky. I stated that you couldn't simply put an M3 wheel into a lesser engine car, apparently the different wheels had different slip rings on the column and different wiring for the airbags and horn so you'd have to modify the column and play around with airbag wiring (not a good idea) to make it work, so quite rightly Andy (the gentleman in question) left the M3 wheel he had on the shelf as it was too much bother and sounded downright dangerous. This was a sticky on a forum by someone who appeared perfectly competent and knowledgeable, after all, why would someone make this stuff up?

Anyhoo, a few days ago Andy saw someone with the same car (an e36 320 touring) on facebook with an M3 wheel on and he asks him what he needed to do to change the wheel? nothing the guy said, it was a straight fit. Lo and behold this guy was 100% right and the wheel went on just fine.

From the sounds of it there were probably some different part numbers for the wiring and fittings and someone probably put 2 and 2 together and got 5 and thought that the parts were incompatible when they were probably merely superceded parts which played absolutely find with all the wheels and columns.

The moral of the story is that forums are a great resource, but they're not the be all and end all and even if something's a sticky, doesn't mean it's correct.

Dr Zoidberg on the Audi forum may be completely right, he might work for an oil company in their lubricant department and he might know EXACTLY what he's talking about, OR he might just be a guy who's spent a few hours on google reading up about oils and he might know jackturd about oil and could be completely misleading people.

Who you going to listen to? FPT? Guy on a forum? :chin:

 

[306maxi]

I treat my car well = )
I may thrash it but only when the engine is hot and i make sure the oil and coolant are fully topped up = )

In spite of your car having a harder life than mine or jrkitching's, your car will probably last every bit as long as ours as long as you're willing to replace the bits that will go wrong with every car when it reaches a certain age

 

[ahmett]

In spite of your car having a harder life than mine or jrkitching's, your car will probably last every bit as long as ours as long as you're willing to replace the bits that will go wrong with every car when it reaches a certain age

I'll keep you guys informed on the car's progress!

 

[306maxi]

I'll keep you guys informed on the car's progress!

Please do! Be easy on the gearbox though!

 

[ahmett]

Please do! Be easy on the gearbox though!

It's been suspiciously fine recently. Funny though whenever i shift into third gear i hear a distinct clack = ) Wonder what that's about haha. I'll get the gearbox oil changed next service just in case.

 

[loveshandbags]

:yeahthat:
One way to assess the quality of an oil is to look at the TBN. This is a measure of how good an oil is at neutralising acids. The attached chart came from here.

Since the 500 requires a C3 spec (low ash) this has caused the TBN to drop - this can be seen in this spec list on Valvoline (highly regarded oil does well for a Class III in Sheer tests) where the ACEA C3 spec was 7.5 and the standard 5W40 for older engines is 10.3

TBN figures for the following...
Selenia is stated as > 7
Castrol Edge is 7.6, Amsoil European spec is 8.0
M1 has a high TBN but did poorly in a Sheer test and does not do an ACEA C3.

So IMHO one can do better than the Selenia particularly given the price. Once the oil has the Fiat Spec Approval 9.55535.S2 you're fully covered.

With the requirement of ACEA C3 for the new range of 'Fiat' engines it would appear that the oil needs changing more regularly given the drop in TBN.

Lastly, Mobil 1 only guarantee their oils for 10K and for 12 months. Any more requires a long life filter. If the TA filter costs £20 odd it would be wishful thinking that it was one.

I'd like to explain the background to this post.

On the AF I saw a thread stating that the Selenia was a rubbish oil and that spun off into Selenia Racing lowering their TBN. (Reminded me a bit of M1 where they cheapened the make of their oil). Comparisons were made with other brands and then spiralled off into Sheer tests etc.

So when the The Twins felt that the Selenia oil was the only one that he could trust in his TA I was attempted to demonstrate that there are better oils. I have posted before a report on sheer tests on well known brands but had nothing where the Selenia oil was tested.

I thought the TBNs quoted above was useful and seeing that the Selenia is in & around the 7 I thought that was OK but not for the price that I've had to pay at my local Fiat dealer. I did double check some of the figures on the attachment and it does seem correct. I quoted the source of the table & really can't see how it's unreliable.

The reference to C3 (Low ash) is correct since although C2 is a mid-SAPS it is still referred to as a low ash at 0.8%. C2 is a requirement for the diesel at that same figure and that's referred to as needing low ash. Attachment came for the AA.

The reference to M1 and their guarantee that was to demonstrate that their 15K long life 'guarantee' oil requires a special long life filter which does NOT appear to be the case with the pricey TA filter.

On the oils mentioned by Maxi of Mobil 1, Comma, Shell & Fuchs that can be used...
Mobile 1 do not have the correct oil and Comma do not have the Fiat approval spec so on a Twin Air this would / could cause difficulty if their was a warranty claim. So I would suggest NOT using those brands.

Liam has already mentioned about some of the multi-air issues on the AF and the 135MA & the QV have service intervals of 18K. This is at logger heads with the US where that quote 8K. Their warranty is 4 years. The UK is 3 years.

So given that the OP is on a 4 year PCP in the 4th year he's still paying for his car and there's no warranty cover. If it was an Alfa you might stand a chance of a goodwill gesture but with a Fiat your chances are second to none. Some would grudge paying £91 x 3 for the 4th year peace of mind but it can be done cheaper and still with a decent brand of oil.

My apologies if I have bored anyone with my uttering boring post.

 

[jrkitching]

Newer does not necessarily equate to better. Many of the materials & fluids used in modern cars are not as good technically as the now-deprecated older products - ofter the push is environmental, not technical.

Paint, oil, petrol - none of these are actually as good at performing their basic function than the stuff we were using 20 years ago.

 

[grimwau]

Newer does not necessarily equate to better. Many of the materials & fluids used in modern cars are not as good technically as the now-deprecated older products - ofter the push is environmental, not technical.

Paint, oil, petrol - none of these are actually as good at performing their basic function than the stuff we were using 20 years ago.

JR, reading this made me cast my mind back to when we used to have Summer and Winter oils (much like the Summer and Winter tyres we have now) although I am going back much further than 20 years.

 

[306maxi]

I'd like to explain the background to this post.

On the AF I saw a thread stating that the Selenia was a rubbish oil and that spun off into Selenia Racing lowering their TBN. (Reminded me a bit of M1 where they cheapened the make of their oil). Comparisons were made with other brands and then spiralled off into Sheer tests etc.

So when the The Twins felt that the Selenia oil was the only one that he could trust in his TA I was attempted to demonstrate that there are better oils. I have posted before a report on sheer tests on well known brands but had nothing where the Selenia oil was tested.

I thought the TBNs quoted above was useful and seeing that the Selenia is in & around the 7 I thought that was OK but not for the price that I've had to pay at my local Fiat dealer. I did double check some of the figures on the attachment and it does seem correct. I quoted the source of the table & really can't see how it's unreliable.

The reference to C3 (Low ash) is correct since although C2 is a mid-SAPS it is still referred to as a low ash at 0.8%. C2 is a requirement for the diesel at that same figure and that's referred to as needing low ash. Attachment came for the AA.

The reference to M1 and their guarantee that was to demonstrate that their 15K long life 'guarantee' oil requires a special long life filter which does NOT appear to be the case with the pricey TA filter.

On the oils mentioned by Maxi of Mobil 1, Comma, Shell & Fuchs that can be used...
Mobile 1 do not have the correct oil and Comma do not have the Fiat approval spec so on a Twin Air this would / could cause difficulty if their was a warranty claim. So I would suggest NOT using those brands.

Liam has already mentioned about some of the multi-air issues on the AF and the 135MA & the QV have service intervals of 18K. This is at logger heads with the US where that quote 8K. Their warranty is 4 years. The UK is 3 years.

So given that the OP is on a 4 year PCP in the 4th year he's still paying for his car and there's no warranty cover. If it was an Alfa you might stand a chance of a goodwill gesture but with a Fiat your chances are second to none. Some would grudge paying £91 x 3 for the 4th year peace of mind but it can be done cheaper and still with a decent brand of oil.

My apologies if I have bored anyone with my uttering boring post.

This is why oil threads are about as productive as ****ing a dead horse. Some numbnut who's heard about tbn starts rabbiting on about it and suddently tbn is the measure of all oils. Well it isn't.

Why go to the AA for advice on oil and terminology when you have the actual body which decides on the specs? ACEA say that a C3 graded oil is mid saps, they should know as they wrote the spec.

When it comes to something like the twinair, it's not entirely without reason to trust the oil that FPT spec. As I said above, there is more to oils than a tbn number and there's also more than hths numbers as well. I wasn't saying the table is unreliable, I was saying that it doesn't tell the whole story, none of us are even remotely equipped to understand which is the best oil and to start using numbers to try and prove a point is just guesswork when none of us genuinely understand lubricants to the point where we could make an informed decision. To actually find out which oil is best you'd want to run a number of engines on a number of different oils and then tear them down after a zillion miles and see which one has worn best and which is still making the best economy and power. Anything else is just a wild guess.

Sure, Liam quoted issues with multiair units in the 135 and 170bhp 1.4 turbo's, bits break! We don't know whether these cars were serviced with the completely wrong grade of oil (5w30 from a barrel), selenia, Castrol edge or whatever, whether the parts are inherently faulty or whether there is some other reason for the failures.

I wasn't ACTUALLY suggesting using Mobil 1 or Comma, I said that you should use an oil that meets the ACEA C3 spec and that you could use any brand you wanted after that. It seems sometimes that you take things written on forums literally, I don't really have the inclination to go out and find out which brands have an appropriate oil because I have found an oil that I'm happy with (Castrol Edge), it's cheap and a well respected brand. Incidently Comma do have an ACEA C3 oil in 5w40 flavour.

I will repeat what I said before......

To summarise......

Use an oil which meets the ACEA C3 specs, is fully synth and is 5w40.
Change the oil and filter at or before 18k miles or 2 years, if you do less than the low mileage service interval, you'll have to change the oil and filter every year. This is what Fiat Powertrain Technologies (the people who develop the engines and decide what the service intervals should be) have decided. Do you trust FPT or do you trust some random guy who read up on a few oil sites, thinks he knows what he's doing and made a sticky? You can guess which camp I'm in.

Don't use an engine flush, if a garage does this to your car, feel free to punch both the service receptionist and the technician in the face, say Daniel from Fiatforum said it's OK and you'll be fine.

Do feel free to change your oil and filters more often than Fiat state that you MUST change them, this is a good thing but it is not absolutely necessary.

Please please please let's not get into yet another boring, tedious, monotonous and ultimately pointless oil thread based on supposition and misunderstanding. It serves no purpose when the only things you need to know are in the handbook (oil grade and interval) and common sense (changing the oil more often if you want to and buying a decent brand of oil).

 

[jrkitching]

Please don't you two start fighting again.

I'd pour oil on the troubled waters, but I'd probably use the wrong brand, grade or spec.

 

[306maxi]

JR, reading this made me cast my mind back to when we used to have Summer and Winter oils (much like the Summer and Winter tyres we have now) although I am going back much further than 20 years.

EXACTLY! Back in the day the "summer" tyres that were around were also entirely suitable for driving around with in the winter when there was a bit of snow, now your car turns into a sled

The focus these days has changed from what it used to be, people want cars that are uber grippy in the summer and good in the wet too, there was obviously a long period where the UK didn't get any bad snow other than in Scotland and tyre buying habits changed accordingly. People also don't want to be having to go in twice a year to have the oil changed on their car. If this were the case with a car, the car would appear to be more trouble to own and would appear more expensive to own also. These are things which would put it down in most peoples estimations.

People want things which are less fuss and which are good for the environment.

 

[306maxi]

Please don't you two start fighting again.

I'd pour oil on the troubled waters, but I'd probably use the wrong brand, grade or spec.

Not trying to cause a fight, just trying to show how any advice other than to use the right grade of oil, change it as often or more often than the manufacturers asks and to not use a flush, is somewhat pointless and can't actually be proven.

 

[RobinPJ]

I'd like to explain the background to this post.

On the AF I saw a thread stating that the Selenia was a rubbish oil and that spun off into Selenia Racing lowering their TBN. (Reminded me a bit of M1 where they cheapened the make of their oil). Comparisons were made with other brands and then spiralled off into Sheer tests etc.

So when the The Twins felt that the Selenia oil was the only one that he could trust in his TA I was attempted to demonstrate that there are better oils. I have posted before a report on sheer tests on well known brands but had nothing where the Selenia oil was tested.

I thought the TBNs quoted above was useful and seeing that the Selenia is in & around the 7 I thought that was OK but not for the price that I've had to pay at my local Fiat dealer. I did double check some of the figures on the attachment and it does seem correct. I quoted the source of the table & really can't see how it's unreliable.

The reference to C3 (Low ash) is correct since although C2 is a mid-SAPS it is still referred to as a low ash at 0.8%. C2 is a requirement for the diesel at that same figure and that's referred to as needing low ash. Attachment came for the AA.

The reference to M1 and their guarantee that was to demonstrate that their 15K long life 'guarantee' oil requires a special long life filter which does NOT appear to be the case with the pricey TA filter.

On the oils mentioned by Maxi of Mobil 1, Comma, Shell & Fuchs that can be used...
Mobile 1 do not have the correct oil and Comma do not have the Fiat approval spec so on a Twin Air this would / could cause difficulty if their was a warranty claim. So I would suggest NOT using those brands.

Liam has already mentioned about some of the multi-air issues on the AF and the 135MA & the QV have service intervals of 18K. This is at logger heads with the US where that quote 8K. Their warranty is 4 years. The UK is 3 years.

So given that the OP is on a 4 year PCP in the 4th year he's still paying for his car and there's no warranty cover. If it was an Alfa you might stand a chance of a goodwill gesture but with a Fiat your chances are second to none. Some would grudge paying £91 x 3 for the 4th year peace of mind but it can be done cheaper and still with a decent brand of oil.

My apologies if I have bored anyone with my uttering boring post.

Michael, you have not bored me at all. But that may be because I have not read these posts.

 

[grimwau]

Please don't you two start fighting again.

I'd pour oil on the troubled waters, but I'd probably use the wrong brand, grade or spec.

and get a big fine.

 

[The Twins]

This is all getting silly and we're getting deep into the murky depths of an oil thread which is amazingly tedious, utterly boring and a waste of everyones bandwidth because not one person on here actually knows what all that much about oil. Even when you see Opie oils posting on various forums, there's usually at least a faint whiff of finely atomised turd in the air.

Fiat spec a fully synth ACEA C3 grade 5w40 oil for all petrol engined 500's (Abarth aside) so if you use that you'll be fine.

As for Mobil guaranteeing their oil for a certain length of time and mileage, what does that even mean? Oil companies offer no warranty with their oil and if you threw a piston through the block because the oil wasn't doing its job then they won't be paying for it anyway, you will. Whilst I wouldn't leave oil in for 18k miles, if Fiat say that you can then you will be able to do so without any devastating consequences. Of course an oil company is going to try and say that you should change your oil more often, that way they'll sell more oil! Most cars don't die because of oil related engine issues anyway, in fact how often do you hear of people having to have engines on everyday cars rebuilt? Modified cars yes, cars which are thrashed yes..... but not your average car which potters to the shops or goes up and down the motorway.

Please step away from google and stop reading up about oils from random sources like people on forums, that person probably doesn't know what they're talking about and just googled it the same as you did, except they think they know enough to make a sticky on the subject..

The C3 rating isn't low SAPS (Sulfated Ash, Phosphorus, Sulfur), it's actually mid SAPS and the C3 rating actually encapsulates a few other ratings like A1,A3 (fuel economy and long life for petrol engines) and B1,B3 and B4 (Fuel economy, extended drain and being for direct injection diesels)

We're kidding ourselves if any of us think that by looking at TBN, HTHS and other spec numbers that we can tell what is a good oil or what is a bad oil, for that you'd have to have a number of identical engines and run them in lab for millions of miles and then check the wear on the engine and also on catalysts and o2 sensors and the like. The best you can do is buy the right oil from a decent company. Personally I like Castrol Edge as it's a well known brand and readily available, if you want to use Fuchs, Comma, Mobil, Shell or whatever then that's fine, if you want to use Asda oil which meets the grade then that's fine also, but personally I'd stick with a better known name.

To summarise......

Use an oil which meets the ACEA C3 specs, is fully synth and is 5w40.
Change the oil and filter at or before 18k miles or 2 years, if you do less than the low mileage service interval, you'll have to change the oil and filter every year. This is what Fiat Powertrain Technologies (the people who develop the engines and decide what the service intervals should be) have decided. Do you trust FPT or do you trust some random guy who read up on a few oil sites, thinks he knows what he's doing and made a sticky? You can guess which camp I'm in.

Don't use an engine flush, if a garage does this to your car, feel free to punch both the service receptionist and the technician in the face, say Daniel from Fiatforum said it's OK and you'll be fine.

Do feel free to change your oil and filters more often than Fiat state that you MUST change them, this is a good thing but it is not absolutely necessary.

Please please please let's not get into yet another boring, tedious, monotonous and ultimately pointless oil thread based on supposition and misunderstanding. It serves no purpose when the only things you need to know are in the handbook (oil grade and interval) and common sense (changing the oil more often if you want to and buying a decent brand of oil).

Good stuff! Agree.
(Almost ran out of data allowance on my iPhone for this post though - he he )

 

[ItalianWines]

Good stuff! Agree.
(Almost ran out of data allowance on my iPhone for this post though - he he )

Hahaha.... I love this... Defo made me LOL....



Btw, what was the question asked by the OP... I forgot after reading all this...

 

[306maxi]

Hahaha.... I love this... Defo made me LOL....



Btw, what was the question asked by the OP... I forgot after reading all this...

He asked whether it was a good idea to change the oil early and got War and Peace.