Technical 2019, 2.3 , 150 campervan front suspension issues

[deejays]

Agreed, but this is the biggest issue with these vans.
Finding a good mech eng with any experience on them and prepared to do the work, isa very rare thing in Australia.
The nearest Fiat service center to me is 2+ hrs away, and doesnt seem too willing to check this out.
I have tried unsuccessufully with 4 separate mech shops to even get a basic allignment check, let alone prepared to rectify the problem. I seems service shops have enough demand to choose what ther want to work on.
Fiat are just not well supported here.

Chadz, if you are intent on finding the issue yourself, you need another van for reference so you can make some meaningful measurements. If not, then you need to find a good mechanic. I feel it has become pointless for you to continue posting. If I was near by (which I am not) I would be happy to rock up with my van and have a quick look.

 

[bugsymike]

Agreed, but this is the biggest issue with these vans.
Finding a good mech eng with any experience on them and prepared to do the work, isa very rare thing in Australia.
The nearest Fiat service center to me is 2+ hrs away, and doesnt seem too willing to check this out.
I have tried unsuccessufully with 4 separate mech shops to even get a basic allignment check, let alone prepared to rectify the problem. I seems service shops have enough demand to choose what ther want to work on.
Fiat are just not well supported here.

What about a delivery company that uses similar vans, if you can find one local, ask them what garage they go to.
It may not be Fiat based, but if their mechanics are good alround at their job they may be of more use, I never specialised on Fiat or any other make, my customers had many different vehicles and kept coming back to me, some for well over twenty years, until I retired.

 

[Anthony489]

Hi again Chadz

My mistake, you are correct of course, negative camber corresponds to the wheel leaning in at the top.

A 16 inch rim is 406 mm at the tyre bead, plus another 14 or so for the flange making 420 mm overall. Every degree of lean gives about 7 mm difference between top and bottom, so 60 mm in would be 8 degrees of negative camber as you say

That's still a massive amount, so something is seriously wrong

It's hard to see any error in strut top position (too far in) or lower wishbone length (too long) being enough to cause this, they would have to be absolutely miles out and the driveshaft wouldn't reach the hub.

That only really leaves distortion in the bearing housing / hub, which would leave the tyre sidewall roughly 50 mm closer to the strut tube than normal

I can't get to my van to measure this, any other volunteers to check out the normal tyre to strut spacing ?

 

[daroya]

The front end geometry has serious issues.
Front tyres hae worn down to < 3mm from new, within 15,000 kms. But even wear ?
The springs have the usual sag with only 750 mm measured to the wheel arch.
There is also the typical violent crash on the bump stops when any road bump or pot hole is crossed
I have tried 3 different suspension shops to get the allignment check and reset, but without luck since there is excess negative camber ( which cannot be adjusted) and none of the shops will do anything until i get the camber fixed.
My own crude but repeatable camber measurement suggests 10-15 deg negative on the driver side, and much more , 15-20deg on the passenger ( left) side. .??
At the same time there is at leas 15+ mm toe in !
Whilst this is a high milage (240k, kms) ex rental, its service records suggest new struts, ball joints, etc were fitted at 220k kms, and they do look recent.
What could be causing this excess negative camber ? …struts not installed correctly
A plan on the increased height Kings springs, but need to understand what else may need replacing
Sugesstions on good DJ hochzeit Mannheim in southern NSW also welcome !

Excess negative camber could be due to incorrectly installed struts, bent control arms, or subframe misalignment. Even with new parts, if they weren’t installed properly or are the wrong spec, geometry will be off. Sagging springs worsen the issue, and your measured camber is far beyond normal. Upgrading to raised Kings springs will help, but you may also need new strut mounts or control arms. Have the subframe and suspension arms inspected for damage or misalignment. A specialist familiar with Ducato campers is your best option for proper diagnosis and repair.

 

[Chadz]

OK,.. After overseas travel delay, i finally got down to fixing this camber problem.
Much time spent assesing the possible cause led me to conclude it must be bent struts…
…ehich turned out to be correct !
New struts and raised Kings springs were ordered and i have just finished fitting them today.
Camber is back to standard, toe in is also corrected and the front now sits 60 mm higher .
$650 Au total and a days curseing got it done.

 

[bugsymike]

OK,.. After overseas travel delay, i finally got down to fixing this camber problem.
Much time spent assesing the possible cause led me to conclude it must be bent struts…
…ehich turned out to be correct !
New struts and raised Kings springs were ordered and i have just finished fitting them today.
Camber is back to standard, toe in is also corrected and the front now sits 60 mm higher .
$650 Au total and a days curseing got it done.

Glad you got it sorted, I assume the Dealer sold it to you like that after the last prospective buyer going for a land speed record didn't see the hump back bridge whilst on roadtest.

 

[Chadz]

Most likely.
But those standard springs gave very short bump travel (50-60mm) that almost any pothole etc caused the bumpstops to be smashed
Those struts and springs were less than 1 yr old !

 

[Chadz]

Conclusions..
If you have a Ducato 250 that looks low at the front ( <50mm from top of tyre to the wheel arch), check the wheel travel by jacking it up intil the tyre just clears the ground.
Measure how much upward movement that was ( ground to wheel arch )
(EG, ground to wheelarch measured 750mm normal loaded, and 876mm fully jack up, ..so 126mm travel)
A standard strut has 185mm full travel, hence there is only 59 mm MAX compression travel available before solid metal on metal shock loading ocurres !……. That is not a good situation.
With new struts and the Kings springs , those dimentions are now 810mm normal loaded, and 910mm jacked up.. giving 100mm downward travel and 85mm compression travel before solid stop.
Now an extra 26 mm compression travel may not seem much, but it sure eliminated those harsh thumps from pot holes, cattle grids , etc, that were obviously the cause of the high impact loads that cause the weakest components ( strut legs) to bend.
So if your Ducato has that low look at the front, check that suspension travel before you need to replace bent struts.!

Oh, and dont consider using strut spacers to lift the front up,…it wont avoid the limited travel problem of the standard front coil springs.

And a question for the tech types,..does anyone make longer travel (185+mm) struts ?

 

[deejays]

@Chadz If you refer back to my first response to your situation (link below) you would have had a front end with not only stronger springs and increased travel height, but also matching dampers with the extended travel you are now enquiring about.

2019, 2.3 , 150 campervan front suspension issues | FIAT Motorhomes / Campervans

The front end geometry has serious issues. Front tyres hae worn down to < 3mm from new, within 15,000 kms. But even wear ? The springs have the usual sag with only 750 mm measured to the wheel arch. There is also the typical violent crash on the bump stops when any road bump or pot hole is...

www.fiatforum.com

Also, the Ducato, new from the factory has a nose down attitude.

 

[Chadz]

@Chadz If you refer back to my first response to your situation (link below) you would have had a front end with not only stronger springs and increased travel height, but also matching dampers with the extended travel you are now enquiring about.

2019, 2.3 , 150 campervan front suspension issues | FIAT Motorhomes / Campervans

The front end geometry has serious issues. Front tyres hae worn down to < 3mm from new, within 15,000 kms. But even wear ? The springs have the usual sag with only 750 mm measured to the wheel arch. There is also the typical violent crash on the bump stops when any road bump or pot hole is...

www.fiatforum.com

Also, the Ducato, new from the factory has a nose down attitude.

So are you saying that tha Alko struts have more shock travel, or is it just the revised springs that result in the increased ride height ?…. ( as is the case with the Kings springs )
That Factory nose down attitude is not seen on all Ducato’s ( i made a point of checking many on my recent trip to Europe)

 

[deejays]

So are you saying that tha Alko struts have more shock travel, or is it just the revised springs that result in the increased ride height ?…. ( as is the case with the Kings springs )
That Factory nose down attitude is not seen on all Ducato’s ( i made a point of checking many on my recent trip to Europe)

My understanding is that the ALKO strut has a longer travel to match the increased standard road height with their matched spring. ALKO spent a lot of money and time developing those units. You would not expect a professional suspension designer to produce a component with just a stiffer spring with increased road height and risk "topping-out" the travel on rebound. Take a look at the new Ducato's in the showroom - all nose down. The trouble with fitting a stronger spring to a standard damper (designed for a softer spring) is the suspension becomes underdamped. The ALKO matches the damper to the uprated spring. I have ALKO fitted to my Ducato camper - excellent suspension. I threw off the brand new front struts less than one year into ownership - they are not designed for Australian roads - OK in the city, but not in the country. I also supplemented the rear leaf with airbags, but also being aware of the mismatch in damping enlisted Bilstein in Sydney to build a set of special dampers with longer travel and matched damping rates.

 

[Chadz]

Similarly, the Munroe Magnum struts i used claim to have been designed to suit 50 mm increased ride height springs and include “uprated” damping…
They also are stated as being equivalent to Alko “305030” struts ?
It is not a risk of topping out on rebound that was the issue,.. it was the risk of bottoming out on compression.
Interestingly, i have rechecked the struts i removed (unbranded) and found they have only 160mm shock travel !!
Compaared to the 185 mm on the Munroe’s
That would suggest there was less than 40 mm compression travel before bottoming out ! ..Rediculous !
I do not know The brand of those struts , but i know they were fitted by a fiat dealership , so i must conclude they were OEM units.
These latest Fiat/Peugot/GM versions dont show the usual “nose down” attitude of previous versions.