Technical 2016 Panda TwinAir 4x4 - have new brake discs+pads+fluid caused clutch problem?

[JayAre]

I’ve just asked ChatGPT this question:

“My 2016 Fiat Panda TwinAir 4x4 recently had all new brake discs and pads fitted and new brake fluid. I understand that the brake fluid is also used by the hydraulic clutch system. Since the brake work was done I have noticed that the clutch starts to get stiff and jerky and the clutch starts to squeak when depressed and released, after driving for a while in stop/start conditions (it works fine when I test it before starting the car up in the morning). Is it possible that the brake work was not correctly done and has caused this clutch problem? If so, what might have been done wrong with the brake work, and what now needs to be done to get the clutch working correctly?”

ChatGPT replied:

“It's possible that the brake work may have inadvertently affected your clutch system, given that both systems share the brake fluid reservoir. Here are a few potential issues and steps to diagnose and address them:

Potential Issues​

1. Air in the Hydraulic System:
   • If air entered the hydraulic system during the brake work, it could cause the clutch to feel stiff and jerky. This might have happened if the brake fluid reservoir was allowed to run low or if the system wasn't properly bled.
2. Contaminated Brake Fluid:
   • If the new brake fluid was contaminated or if old fluid wasn't completely flushed out, it could affect both the braking and clutch systems. Contaminated fluid can cause the clutch to behave erratically.
3. Faulty Master or Slave Cylinder:
   • Sometimes, when work is done on the braking system, it can inadvertently stress the master or slave cylinder of the clutch. If these components were already marginal, the additional strain could cause them to fail or behave poorly.
4. Mechanical Issues:
   • It's also possible that unrelated mechanical issues with the clutch system (such as wear in the clutch linkage or pedal assembly) coincidentally became apparent after the brake work was done.

Steps to Diagnose and Fix​

1. Check Brake Fluid Level:
   • Ensure that the brake fluid level is correct. If it's low, top it up with the correct type of brake fluid (usually DOT 4 for modern vehicles, but check your owner's manual). [what is ‘DOT 4’?]
2. Bleed the Clutch System:
   • Bleed the clutch hydraulic system to remove any air bubbles. This involves attaching a bleed kit to the slave cylinder and pumping the clutch pedal to expel air and ensure only fluid is in the system.
3. Inspect for Leaks:
   • Look for any signs of leaks around the master cylinder, slave cylinder, and fluid lines. Leaks can allow air to enter the system and cause problems.
4. Test the Clutch Pedal:
   • With the engine off, press and release the clutch pedal multiple times to see if it feels firm and consistent. If it remains spongy or inconsistent, further bleeding might be needed.
5. Check for Mechanical Issues:
   • Inspect the clutch pedal assembly and linkage for any signs of wear or damage. Listen for any unusual noises that might indicate mechanical issues.
6. Consult a Professional:
   • If the problem persists after checking and bleeding the system, it might be necessary to consult a professional mechanic. They can perform a more thorough inspection and test the master and slave cylinders for proper operation.

Summary​

It's possible that the brake work done on your Fiat Panda could have introduced air into the hydraulic system or highlighted a pre-existing issue with the clutch hydraulics. By checking and bleeding the system, inspecting for leaks, and ensuring the brake fluid is clean and at the correct level, you can often resolve these issues. If these steps don't fix the problem, a professional mechanic should be consulted for further diagnosis and repair.”

Any thoughts on this answer?

(Note: work was done by my trusted local independent who’s serviced all my cars for literally decades - but I’m wondering if my “new” 2016 car was a complexity too far…?)

 

[Panda IIs]

Oh my goodness! I would say there is "nothing to see here!" Or "no sh!t Sherlock" - these are very "vanilla" responses. I do not even begin to pretend to understand AI but the references it uses are web based data sets; so it is working from stuff it finds on the internet that people like me can write, which would be not great if I were deciding to write about open-heart surgery (for example). And even my writing on Pandas is questionable!

The answers you have here are all plausible and possible (DOT 4 is a standard for glycol based brake fluid by the way) but none really identify the issue. I have not had to deal with the hydraulic clutch on my 4x4 TA but I think, given the fluid change, I would look at checking that the clutch side of the system was also changed/bled. I think I have read on here (somewhere) recently that one of our knowledgeable contributors suggests the symptoms described may be an indication of failing seals in the clutch master cylinder.

Something I do know a little about is the chemical compatibility of elastomers (from which the master cylinder seals are made) and a change in the contacting fluid may cause them to swell or shrink from their previous saturated state (although if fluids used are to the same standard this should be negligible) this may be what you are experiencing.

 

[JayAre]

Oh my goodness! I would say there is "nothing to see here!" Or "no sh!t Sherlock" - these are very "vanilla" responses. I do not even begin to pretend to understand AI but the references it uses are web based data sets; so it is working from stuff it finds on the internet that people like me can write, which would be not great if I were deciding to write about open-heart surgery (for example). And even my writing on Pandas is questionable!

The answers you have here are all plausible and possible (DOT 4 is a standard for glycol based brake fluid by the way) but none really identify the issue. I have not had to deal with the hydraulic clutch on my 4x4 TA but I think, given the fluid change, I would look at checking that the clutch side of the system was also changed/bled. I think I have read on here (somewhere) recently that one of our knowledgeable contributors suggests the symptoms described may be an indication of failing seals in the clutch master cylinder.

Something I do know a little about is the chemical compatibility of elastomers (from which the master cylinder seals are made) and a change in the contacting fluid may cause them to swell or shrink from their previous saturated state (although if fluids used are to the same standard this should be negligible) this may be what you are experiencing.

Thanks.

I’ve since checked the handbook which stipulates “characteristics”: “Synthetic fluid for brake and clutch systems. Exceeds specifications: FMVSS no. 116 DOT 4, ISO 4925 SAE J1704.” and then a “Specification: 9.55597 or MS.90039” which I’m now concerned may not have been met.

The problem here is akin to healthcare: getting
1. the correct diagnosis, AND THEN
2. the correct “treatment”.

I don’t even have the first, and simply presenting to another garage without a plan (who are unlikely to be experts in correct diagnosis+treatment specifically for 2015-2022 Panda TA 4x4 clutch - possibly brake related - issues) seems a recipe for “money pit” costs.

The other issue is that there are so many different Panda 2012+ variants:
- 2012-15 v 2015-22
- 2WD v 4x4
- diesel v petrol (different engines, gearboxes, and clutch/brake hydraulic systems?)
- “4x4” v Cross
all of them potentially having different clutch/brake setups (linkages, pipes+seals, master+slave cylinders etc etc) making reliable/correct diagnosis even more problematic (do respective owners, let alone the garages, even understand these differences?)

That being said, it does seem necessary to have a logical approach (quickest+cheapest first, longest+potentially most expensive last) in order to control investigation costs, and I’m wondering if the AI might actually have pulled together a reasonable / logical plan to present to the garage?

As a non-tech owner it does seem so, but it would be good to have members’ thoughts before I book an appointment…

 

[Panda IIs]

Thanks.

I’ve since checked the handbook which stipulates “characteristics”: “Synthetic fluid for brake and clutch systems. Exceeds specifications: FMVSS no. 116 DOT 4, ISO 4925 SAE J1704.” and then a “Specification: 9.55597 or MS.90039” which I’m now concerned may not have been met.

The problem here is akin to healthcare: getting
1. the correct diagnosis, AND THEN
2. the correct “treatment”.

I don’t even have the first, so presenting to another garage, who are unlikely to be experts in correct diagnosis+treatment for 2015-2022 Panda TA 4x4 clutch (possibly brake related) issues seems a recipe for “money pit” costs.

The other issue is that there are so many different Panda 2012+ variants:
- 2012-15 v 2015-22
- 2WD v 4x4
- diesel v petrol (different engines, gearboxes, and clutch/brake hydraulic systems?)
- “4x4” v Cross
all of them potentially having different clutch/brake setups (linkages, pipes+seals, master+slave cylinders etc etc) making reliable/correct diagnosis even more problematic (do respective owners, let alone the garages, even understand these differences?)

That being said, it does seem necessary to have a logical approach (quickest+cheapest first, longest+potentially most expensive last) in order to control investigation costs, and I’m wondering if the AI might actually have pulled together a reasonable / logical plan to present to the garage?

As a non-tech owner it does seem so, but it would be good to have members’ thoughts before I book an appointment…

I would strongly recommend you pick up the phone and speak to the FIAT/ALFA workshop in Royston. Even though you are unlikely to use them (my assumption based on your location) you will find them very helpful and more often or not have come across the problem. Just have a look at their website; there are not many garages that give you comprehensive "how to" instructions (effectively) sharing their own IP.

 

[JayAre]

I would strongly recommend you pick up the phone and speak to the FIAT/ALFA workshop in Royston. Even though you are unlikely to use them (my assumption based on your location) you will find them very helpful and more often or not have come across the problem. Just have a look at their website; there are not many garages that give you comprehensive "how to" instructions (effectively) sharing their own IP.

Thanks - useful suggestion. I did laugh, though, thinking of Royston Vasey and the service desk staffed by all the grotesque comedy characters from that TV show!

 

[Panda IIs]

Thanks - useful suggestion. I did laugh, though, thinking of Royston Vasey and the service desk staffed by all the grotesque comedy characters from that TV show!

Ask for Ben - but don't share that reference!

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

As I think may have been mentioned, the clutch uses fluid from the brake fluid reservoir to operate. So long as the reservoir remains full (or at leat above the level of the tube that heads from it to the clutch pedal master cylinder), there should be no issues here. But, if the fluid was allowed to drop below that point during a change (bad workmanship if it did), then potentially there's a bubble in the clutch system now.

That then leads to the second issue: bleeding the system. I believe the TA uses an external slave cylinder (item 1 in this drawing, which comes from this Forum's online parts catalogue - https://eper.fiatforum.com/en/Drawings/Detail/F/F/GIN/33/181/3/20/4/Group). In that case, there;s a bleed point on the top of it.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Thanks.

I’ve since checked the handbook which stipulates “characteristics”: “Synthetic fluid for brake and clutch systems. Exceeds specifications: FMVSS no. 116 DOT 4, ISO 4925 SAE J1704.” and then a “Specification: 9.55597 or MS.90039” which I’m now concerned may not have been met.

You can ignore all those numbers! The only thing to see is that the brake fluid says DOT4 -- and to be honest, you'd be hard pressed to find anything else, as that is 'standard', normal, suits (nearly*) every car on the road today brake fluid.


(* Before someone pipes up: the only exception here is the fluid used by a very specific set of old Citroen cars [2CV, and any with the hydropnuematic suspension], which used a mineral oil brake fluid called LHM. DOT is the US Department of Transport, and the numbers indicate the boiling point range. There's a 'higher' standard too called DOT5, but that's really for race cars. Older cars with all drum brakes used an earlier DOT3 standard.)

 

[Marcus Daly]

Before someone pipes up: the only exception here is the fluid used by a very specific set of old Citroen cars [2CV, and any with the hydropnuematic suspension], which used a mineral oil brake fluid called LHM.

And some R-Rs/Bentleys.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

And some R-Rs/Bentleys.

...which used the Citroen hydraulic suspension and braking system , but we digress...

 

[JayAre]

thanks @Herts Hillhopper , that is helpful detail