Technical 2015 Ducato 130 Multijet black smoke ?

[Fattrucker]

Hi everyone .
Thank you for having me here .
First post here so sorry in advance if I do anything wrong .
And many apologies for the long post .

I have a 2015 fiat Ducato 130 Multijet low floor luton van with approximately 74K on the clock .
Engine F1AE3481D Version 250DMMCU GY
I bought it a few months ago from quite some distance away from home (250+ miles) .
On the journey home I was following the van (which was being driven by my partner) when I thought I saw the occasional puff of black smoke .
This was maybe once every 5-10 minutes or so , seemingly random and very very light .
I didn't pay this any heed as I thought it was just "Clearing itself" on a long run as I was told the van had only been used for short journeys.
The van has and does always start first time with very little cranking regardless of ambient temps and idles smoothly.
Fuel economy (according to the onboard computer- iffy I know and as a guide only) has been 42-49mpg running the vehicle without cargo .
Since I bought it I have tried to fix various minor issues with the van (cruise control not working , No temp display on the dash etc)
The van has been used maybe once a week since for the past few months but has quite quickly gotten a lot worse in regards to the black smoke issue .
Initially , under normal driving conditions the van would regularly puff a small plume of black smoke .
Almost as if on one cylinder . As the frequency of the puff increased with revs .
Now under careful slow acceleration the van has a "normal" light grey haze to the exhaust . But any attempt at quicker acceleration or acceleration under load (up a hill say)
and the van emits James Bond-esque levels of continuous thick black smoke until the accelerator is released.
As the MOT is due quite soon , as is , it's going to fail miserably on the emissions test.
Fuel economy (according to the on board computer) has fallen off a cliff and now the van struggles to do 23mpg (Again devoid of cargo and on similar routes with a similar driving style )
Stood outside with the the vehicle running and stationary the exhaust fumes sting your eyes even when they appear to be a light haze , not even thick and black .
The vehicle shows no codes when using a cheap OBDII reader (I am seriously looking at buying the MultiECUscan tool)
I have replaced the offside mirror to regain the ambient temp display on the dash (I am lead to believe from other sources that this has some bearing on how the vehicle runs with the ECU using this info ).
I have since had the DPF cleaned twice .
Replaced the MAF for a branded new branded one .
Replaced the O2/lambda sensor with a branded one (It appears to only have one-Euro5 ?)
Had the injectors flow tested (All ok "except one was a tiny bit low but all were within spec" I was told)
New turbo .
New glow plugs/heater plugs .

I hope you guys can shed some light on the subject as the last two garages were clueless .
I has been suggested that it may have something to do with the high pressure fuel pump/fuel return system ?
Sadly I am all too unfamiliar with this platform to comment on this .

P.S. Again sorry for the long post .

Fattrucker

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi and welcome . Which corner of the UK are you in..

The might be somebody with the MES software in your area..
The forum has a register..
Others like myself just have the kit

I am near the M4

 

[Fattrucker]

Hi varesecrazy .
Thanks for the tip . The M4 is a little out of reach at the moment LOL.
I'm near Rotherham , South Yorkshire.

Fattrucker

 

[varesecrazy]

There are a few on the MultiECUscan register nearer you

I would be tempted to try the MES

AS it will read Every module on the vehicle..

And can give useful info like Rail and atmospheric pressures..
AS seen by the ECU

 

[Fattrucker]

As a further update I have also tried temporarily blanking off the EGR with a plate (no hole in the middle) on the advice of another local garage .
Somehow the black smoke seems worse now than it ever has been.
On a plus point I have now bitten the bullet and ordered the MMES . (Via BMDiag as it was £50 cheaper than Gendan and I didn't want to have to deal with import charges direct from MES)
Hopefully it's here by Monday or Tuesday at the latest and it was worth it ?

Fattrucker

 

[Fattrucker]

Well the MMES has arrived .
Got it connected to an old Win11 laptop and it connects .
Great stuff .
Now I just need to know what I'm looking at/for please .
We went away this weekend and a friend had wired version of MultiECUScan to try and show me the basics .
His version had the option to display injector voltages as well as injector compensation .
My version only has injector compensation visible . Is there a setting I'm missing somewhere to enable this ?
Should I be able to see fuel rail pressure sensor as a voltage or a pressure reading of some sort somewhere please ?
Any guidance or help as to what items and values of said items I should be looking at to get to the bottom of this smoke show would be greatly appreciated . TIA
I'm just kinda stuck now as to what I should be looking for .

P.S. Have I bought the wrong version ? Should I have bought the wired version instead ? Does it have more features/access to modules ?
It didn't seem the case when I was ordering it .

Fattrucker

 

[Fattrucker]

Sorry I forgot to say in my first post the vehicle has had a new air filter and fuel filter too

Fattrucker

 

[varesecrazy]

Well the MMES has arrived .
Got it connected to an old Win11 laptop and it connects .
Great stuff .
Now I just need to know what I'm looking at/for please .
We went away this weekend and a friend had wired version of MultiECUScan to try and show me the basics .
His version had the option to display injector voltages as well as injector compensation .
My version only has injector compensation visible . Is there a setting I'm missing somewhere to enable this ?
Should I be able to see fuel rail pressure sensor as a voltage or a pressure reading of some sort somewhere please ?
Any guidance or help as to what items and values of said items I should be looking at to get to the bottom of this smoke show would be greatly appreciated . TIA
I'm just kinda stuck now as to what I should be looking for .

P.S. Have I bought the wrong version ? Should I have bought the wired version instead ? Does it have more features/access to modules ?
It didn't seem the case when I was ordering it .

Fattrucker

A Full licence Should give full connectivity

Of course there are different Editions..
It's always possible the "write" has lost something between your friends older version and the current one you bought

 

[Fattrucker]

I'm hoping it's a full version as I purchased it from a legitimate source and it registered instantly on MultiECUScan's website.
It could be as you say something has been changed between iterations of the program .
It just seems like a bit of a downgrade to not be able to see fuel rail pressure or injector voltage .
I hope someone can explain what I've done wrong ?

Fattrucker

 

[Fattrucker]

Well it's a slow process , but here's an update .

I had a diagnostic check on the van fuel system . All the injectors failed the leak-off test miserably .

The tester told me he would usually expect the test bottles to be half full in maybe seven or eight minutes . Mine filled the bottles in well under a minute .

So full set of replacement injectors then . Simple no ?

Well not quite . The tester rang "Fiat" didn't say where or who he spoke to . And "Fiat" told him my van has "the wrong engine in" . ???
The tester thought the van had had an engine swap . A Fiat Ducato swapped for an Iveco .
So because non standard parts are fitted he was not prepared to carry out any further work .
The tester did tell me that the injectors that are fitted were probably damaged by the ECU . The ECU does have some injector codes stored , but the injectors are the non coded variety apparently . The injectors are 0445120011 model with a large "3" stamped into the top . The ECU is a Marelli 8F3 CF5/CF5+/EOBD Deisel injection (2.3) . Are these injectors and ECU really incompatible ? If I get a new set of the same injectors will the ECU destroy them as he suggests ? The van has no trouble starting or running other than the extreme overfuelling and as a consequence the black smoke . It did run fine and was economical 500ish miles ago.
How would you pro eed from here ?

Fattrucker

 

[Fattrucker]

I have found that the engine fitted is a F1AE0481B rather than the F1AE3481D which is on the VIN plate .
Could the 0481B cylinder head be machined to accept the flat bottomed injectors of the 3481D ?
Would the cylinder head be thick/strong enough ? If this is possible would a thicker copper washer to regain injector nozzle tip to piston crown clearance suffice or am I oversimplifying things ? Unfortunately I don't have any measurements of the two injectors to compare .

Fattrucker

 

[cyb0r]

I have found that the engine fitted is a F1AE0481B rather than the F1AE3481D which is on the VIN plate .
Could the 0481B cylinder head be machined to accept the flat bottomed injectors of the 3481D ?
Would the cylinder head be thick/strong enough ? If this is possible would a thicker copper washer to regain injector nozzle tip to piston crown clearance suffice or am I oversimplifying things ? Unfortunately I don't have any measurements of the two injectors to compare .

Fattrucker

What a wierd situation you have, we travelled down south 2 years ago, travelling roughly same distance as yourself. to buy an early 2016 ducato 2,300cc that cost us £10,250 also had an engine change to an an older iveco, our engine is a 2014 and was never declared replaced . We only found out last year again same as yourself parts incompatible. Then we run a scan and found original ecu stored miles at 189,000. We were sold the van with 69,000 genuine miles which is all correct with dvla, mots etc. we also only found out when injectors went black smoke also. And the sump was ivecto not ducato. We contacted the rouge that sold us it and he said take it to court. His name was Carl so wondering if same guys you bought from. Really strange one.
Anyway i am changing injectors now with new ones. Engines are same, different sump and ecu the 130bhp fiat whereas the iveco was 90bhp, the change is only in ecu. Iveco chose to lower bhp on some of they're vans ie flatbeds etc.
I treble checked heads etc were all same and they appear to be on all. . Our ecu is also. ECU is a Marelli 8F3 CF5/CF5+/EOBD

 

[cyb0r]

We built our van into a camper before we realised that we had been crooked.
Our engine unknown miles Is a F1AE3481A (2014 ) 2,300cc
Your engine was produced in various years from 2010 to 2014- With some on. 2,287cc And 2,300cc. So could be one of the 2

 

[bugsymike]

On a slightly different note and more for my information, I had several older Iveco Daily's with the 2.8 Sofim engine single overhead cam and being rear wheel drive and mounted front to rear in an upright position, I found the similar version 2.8 Sofim mounted in a Fiat Ducato being front wheel drive and engine inclined, it used a different lower bottom end (crank bearing carrier) and sump, so although both engines appeared similar and both had Iveco written on the blocks etc. they were not directly interchangeable apart from the cylinder head. I suppose it may have been physically possible to fit the crank from the wrong engine but seeing as they are "line bored" having a different bottom of the bearing carriers would be poor practice.
My question would be is the Ducato 2.3 and 3 litre versions different in the same way to the Iveco Daily ones in the same way the older 2.8 were?

 

[cyb0r]

Not sure on that one, I do know 100% that our engine is exact same as fiats 2300 unit apart from our oil pickup and sump which can be changed to the fiat ducato one. However i have chose not to do this as the ducato suffered low oil pressure warnings and we have never had this.
I also replaced full timing belt with new water pumps etc, turbo and egr valve.. all parts were from the vans meant to be original engine with code F1AE3481D. Its a strong puller but once we started getting heaps black smoke on excelleration especially after 2300 rpm this was sweet spot, stay under no black smoke.
When we found out about engine we decided to replace all above.
Old injectors are all out and are in poor condition.

 

[Fattrucker]

What a wierd situation you have, we travelled down south 2 years ago, travelling roughly same distance as yourself. to buy an early 2016 ducato 2,300cc that cost us £10,250 also had an engine change to an an older iveco, our engine is a 2014 and was never declared replaced . We only found out last year again same as yourself parts incompatible. Then we run a scan and found original ecu stored miles at 189,000. We were sold the van with 69,000 genuine miles which is all correct with dvla, mots etc. we also only found out when injectors went black smoke also. And the sump was ivecto not ducato. We contacted the rouge that sold us it and he said take it to court. His name was Carl so wondering if same guys you bought from. Really strange one.
Anyway i am changing injectors now with new ones. Engines are same, different sump and ecu the 130bhp fiat whereas the iveco was 90bhp, the change is only in ecu. Iveco chose to lower bhp on some of they're vans ie flatbeds etc.
I treble checked heads etc were all same and they appear to be on all. . Our ecu is also. ECU is a Marelli 8F3 CF5/CF5+/EOBD

We built our van into a camper before we realised that we had been crooked.
Our engine unknown miles Is a F1AE3481A (2014 ) 2,300cc
Your engine was produced in various years from 2010 to 2014- With some on. 2,287cc And 2,300cc. So could be one of the 2

Hi Cyb0r

Thank you for the info . I was told cylinder heads could absolutely NOT be swapped .

I'm on the right track to getting it "fixed" now . Just need a break in the weather to finish things off .
I just need to find out if the air intake temp sensor is in the "throttle body" or not .
I have an intake air temperature fault that has come up since I cleaned the valve with brake and clutch cleaner ! D'oH !
Replacing what I believe to be the temperature sensor on the intake manifold (From research) I still have the fault (P0110-15 air temperature sensor (Air flow meter) I was told the sensor could well be a fake one (Bosch).
I have previously replaced the drivers mirror with the sensor for ambient temperature . The temps on the dash seem accurate now with external thermometers ,
I'll then replace the turbo AGAIN as I bought the wrong one . So I'll just swap cartridges this time .
I also need to look into a DPF delete as it's down on power from when we bought it and MPG is still very low 20's at best. Even after two "cleans" and a reluctantly done forced regen .
Black smoke has now gone as I bought a set of injectors for the F1AE3481D (in the hope these are compatible with the ECU fitted ). Then changed the injector nozzle seats after extensive measurement . So the "flat" bottomed injectors are now chamfered/tapered and seem to work fine after coding to the ECU with MultiECUscan .


P.S. No the seller wasn't Carl/Karl but can't remember his name either sorry. This swap does seem to be more common than I'd feared from the more dishonest sellers.
Fattrucker

 

[cyb0r]

Hi Fattrucker
I just thought this was a very strange coincidence our van and yours.. we did a lot of research and found the van had came from an airport courier company that went bust delivering airport parcels. The guy that sold us it denied all knowledge of engine swaps etc as he said didnt have long enough. As we spent a fortune building into a camper we decided not to pursue as we would have lost much more than the van cost.
Did any of your injector clamp bolts break with you when you were taking them out. 2 snapped on myself so had to very carefully drill both out and re tap.. nightmare of a job

 

[Fattrucker]

Hi Fattrucker
I just thought this was a very strange coincidence our van and yours.. we did a lot of research and found the van had came from an airport courier company that went bust delivering airport parcels. The guy that sold us it denied all knowledge of engine swaps etc as he said didnt have long enough. As we spent a fortune building into a camper we decided not to pursue as we would have lost much more than the van cost.
Did any of your injector clamp bolts break with you when you were taking them out. 2 snapped on myself so had to very carefully drill both out and re tap.. nightmare of a job

Very very strangely coincidental the similarities between your van and ours ??? Ours was from "A private antiques dealer" . I use quotes as he could well have been the same guy just told us lies . TOH says she thinks his name was "Dean" again could be porkies ??.
No fortunately none of the bolts snapped and I was able to pull the injectors out with two fingers and a twist they were that loose. I bought the tools in an effort to save some time (Thinking ahead) I only found this out AFTER I'd spent £50 on the tools in preparation for the struggle ahead.

Tapping injector clamp bolts is NOT a skill I wish to acquire thank you very much . Hats off to you sir and very well done .

Fattrucker