Technical 1989 2.5td fresh rebuild NO oil pressure

[Scuby]

Hello all,

Back at it in the final stages of buttoning up a full rebuild on a 1989 Tabert camper based on a 280 chassis.

I've fully rebuilt the 2.5td, the only thing I haven't replaced is the assembly that runs off the cam belt and runs the oil pump, power steering, fuel pump assembly and vacuum pump.

Pretty much started on the button first try once fuel got back in to the lines. Oil pressure light didn't go off after about 20 seconds of nervewracking idle. Shut it down. Tried again. No luck. Checked oil level, wiring etc. After several such attempts (I did use a lot of assembly lube) I started to get very uncomfortable at the idea of running the engine longer.

I pulled the oil pan and it's brand new gasket and checked all was good with the pickup tube. I then fashioned a hose to attach to the pickup tube at the screen to manually prime the system. As I was doing this with a helper we noted not only did it seem to work but oil started dripping out of all the gallery's across the crankshaft. This made me feel a little better. Re-assembled with a new pan gasket, stil no oil pressure!

After making sure it wasn't the switch and a few more tries I attached a manual gauge in place of the switch. It read less than 0.25 bar cranking. I didn't want to run it again.

Decided to dive into the oil pump as much as possible without removing the whole assembly and having to redo timing belt etc. Pulled the vacuum pump and the next "layer" about 1.5cm thick piece that directs oil and covers a gear. Seems from what I can find this is the oil pump. Packed it all with a ton of grease. put it back together. Fired it up, and after about 15 not so fun seconds, the oil pressure light finally went off! HOWEVER, the top end sounded very ticky to me and I hadn't put the cooling system back together yet so I didn't run it long. This was a few weeks ago.

I buttoned up the cooling system today and wanted to go for it's first drive. I figured the lifters just need a bit more oil or something of the sort.

Guess what: no oil pressure again. I've ran it 3 times for 20 seconds each hoping it would build pressure and it simply won't. Pulled the oil filler cap and heat escaped and the top end is dry as a bone. Not good.

I'm doing all of this as a favour for a friend. No good deed goes unpunished. At this point I need my lift back and wan't the thing done.

It was run dry, which is why it needed a new crank and full rebuild. I cleaned the whole pump assembly. Where is the oil pump? What part of the assembly? Does anyone have a diagram or tips on what to do? I've pulled the vacuum pump again and the plate behind it. I can't see what else would function as the oil pump. Some of the grease I had packed was still there. I don't think it ever actually had real oil pressure.

I'm at a loss. Hoping the guys who know these 8140 engines well can chime in here.

cheers

 

[Scuby]

The only thing I can think of having a good look at the situation is that the pirmary oil drain of the "master" pump assembly has leaked dry...I found it finger tight today. These images are from a different forum but show exactly the pump setup I have. I have the mid plate on the right out of the egine and the lower of the two gear. The teeth look fine and the pump looks to be very crude in that, I can't see how it would wear out. It has to be good as it gave me oil pressure a few weeks ago. I'm wondering what the valve does, how it operates. I cleaned it and dissambled it, but the outer housing with holes in it wasn't smooth going in and out. Any experts?

Perhaps reassemble, pack with grease and try again? This time not losing any oil while it sits causing it to basically not have any oil in it and thus not be able to draw any? Does this theory make sense to anyone or am I clutching at straws?

 

[jackwhoo]

Oil pressure relief valve.
If stuck open very little or no oil pressure.
Don't use normal grease in oil pump, it's too thick and can cause bearing shells to spin in caps. Petroleum jelly maybe @bugsymike may know more.
You have done so much work don't let it fail now...... your friend really should pay for a replacement oil pump assembly.

 

[jackwhoo]

Google 351516000135
The complete accessory housing assembly with oil pump , less than £300 from autodoc.
You would need to check it is correct part for specific engine you working on.

 

[bugsymike]

As @jackwhoo says , don't use grease and pressure relief valve operation needs checking.
Personally all the ones in the past I have rebuilt I just assembled with a generous amount of normal engine oil.
Usually after 30 seconds, oil light goes out at idle, I give it another 30 secs or so and bring the revs up on a light throttle. Then a check around to ensure no oil leaks, also on some you can visually see oil around the cam shaft , depending on where the filler is (most of my Sofim engines where in Iveco Dailys 2.5 and 2.8) and oil level, correct restart and run at fast idle until normal running temp. check for any oil and water leaks and road test avoiding labouring or excessive revs, then progressive increase as hours or miles go on.
Re the oil pressure, I am assuming no issue with relief valve, oil pick up filter and pipe all clear (gauze in pick up filter often heavily carboned up) good seal on pick up pipe to engine, no damage to O rings on side housing where it bolts to the engine block via the six long bolts, good quality oil filter(in my case they came from the Dealer) if you disturbed the six bolt housing those O rings are critical as affects suction for oil to draw up from oil strainer in sump.
Where you say "As I was doing this with a helper we noted not only did it seem to work but oil started dripping out of all the gallery's across the crankshaft" as you primed it,. Is there any chance that it was leaking from where you felt oil was dripping out of the gallery, but was actually as you primed it was leaking from a poor connection/gasket/flange/ split in pick up pipe etc?
By the way the "lifters" are shimmed not hydraulic so if noisy it is due to running dry
When new crank and bearings, I assume all correct size bearings , matched to the new crank etc.
Generally speaking they are a heavy commercial engine, fairly simple design and millions made so not known for any major issues.
I always filled with water/coolant before initial start up and one boss queried this with me, saying what if you have to take it apart again, as many of his staff would leave the radiator out etc. I said " I have rebuilt it, I know it will start and be OK", it sounds big headed, but I was taught right as an apprentice, maybe not the fastest, but careful.

 

[Scuby]

As @jackwhoo says , don't use grease and pressure relief valve operation needs checking.
Personally all the ones in the past I have rebuilt I just assembled with a generous amount of normal engine oil.
Usually after 30 seconds, oil light goes out at idle, I give it another 30 secs or so and bring the revs up on a light throttle. Then a check around to ensure no oil leaks, also on some you can visually see oil around the cam shaft , depending on where the filler is (most of my Sofim engines where in Iveco Dailys 2.5 and 2.8) and oil level, correct restart and run at fast idle until normal running temp. check for any oil and water leaks and road test avoiding labouring or excessive revs, then progressive increase as hours or miles go on.
Re the oil pressure, I am assuming no issue with relief valve, oil pick up filter and pipe all clear (gauze in pick up filter often heavily carboned up) good seal on pick up pipe to engine, no damage to O rings on side housing where it bolts to the engine block via the six long bolts, good quality oil filter(in my case they came from the Dealer) if you disturbed the six bolt housing those O rings are critical as affects suction for oil to draw up from oil strainer in sump.
Where you say "As I was doing this with a helper we noted not only did it seem to work but oil started dripping out of all the gallery's across the crankshaft" as you primed it,. Is there any chance that it was leaking from where you felt oil was dripping out of the gallery, but was actually as you primed it was leaking from a poor connection/gasket/flange/ split in pick up pipe etc?
By the way the "lifters" are shimmed not hydraulic so if noisy it is due to running dry
When new crank and bearings, I assume all correct size bearings , matched to the new crank etc.
Generally speaking they are a heavy commercial engine, fairly simple design and millions made so not known for any major issues.
I always filled with water/coolant before initial start up and one boss queried this with me, saying what if you have to take it apart again, as many of his staff would leave the radiator out etc. I said " I have rebuilt it, I know it will start and be OK", it sounds big headed, but I was taught right as an apprentice, maybe not the fastest, but careful.

Thanks for replies.

To answer: oil pickup was cleaned by me thoroughly with both parts cleaner, soap, high pressure water. I spent about an hour on it. As i couldn't get a new one and the engine had been run dry of oil, eaten the bearing on #2 cylinder and killed the crank. All bearings and crank provided by local engine refurb machinist who also cleaned and crosshatched the block. Head's been done etc. New rings on the pistons, con-rod on 2 is been replaced and all bearings replaced. Everything cleaned out thoroughly and just about every gasket and 0-ring that I cam across, including those between the block and auxilary housing. Suction *shouldn't* be an issue although it obviously is. If the aux housing isn't filed with oil would a dry pump have a hard time getting up to pressure? How long would be acceptable with the oil pressure light off, indicating bottem end pressure for the top end to be "ticky". I don't want to wipe a cam lobe. When it did start with sufficient pressure after grease priming the pump last time it did leak oil out over the last few weeks via the drain on the aux housing. When it did start the top end was very noisy to my mind although I don't know these engines otherwise and don't know how noisy the top end is without the "beaty" cover to dampen sound.

So question for you having done a lot of these: if the aux housing was dry, as it was on initial assembly, and was yesterday after sitting a few weeks, could that be my culprit? Or do I need to admint defeat, remove aux housing and get a new one? Also: what is the resting stat of the bypass valve? It's out portion with the holes in it in which the spring and inner portion sit doesn't move smoothly in the housing. Is that an issue? I'd think that as long as the inner portion moves freely that's ok. And if anything I'd have too much not too little pressure.

No grease, but petroleum jelly then to pack the pump on one last attempt?

Even though I'm a competent mechanic situations like this, especially having the job spread over six months have me doubting all sorts of steps along the way....


PS: the oil was dripping down over the crank coming from above the girdle, it also dribled out of the pressure sensor hard line at the back of the block and nothing leaked out of the pickup, pickup tube etc. so it seems that portion of the system is in order...

 

[Scuby]

Oil pressure relief valve.
If stuck open very little or no oil pressure.
Don't use normal grease in oil pump, it's too thick and can cause bearing shells to spin in caps. Petroleum jelly maybe @bugsymike may know more.
You have done so much work don't let it fail now...... your friend really should pay for a replacement oil pump assembly.

I've looked around. I seem to have an interesting mix which I can't find. I have a mechanical lift pump on top of the aux housing, which most don't have a provision for. But thank you

 

[jackwhoo]

Oil pressure relief valve outer tube with holes in should not be a loose fit in aluminium housing , it doesn't move when fully assembled.
The plunger must move smoothly inside tube. The spring holds the plunger fully in the outer tube when engine not running. Oil pressure pushes the plunger against spring when engine running.if pressure too high the plunger moves to allow some oil back to sump.

If the oil pump drained dry of oil while standing that could explain why insufficient suction to pull oil up from sump.


I have not built one of these pumps .

 

[Scuby]

Oil pressure relief valve outer tube with holes in should not be a loose fit in aluminium housing , it doesn't move when fully assembled.
The plunger must move smoothly inside tube. The spring holds the plunger fully in the outer tube when engine not running. Oil pressure pushes the plunger against spring when engine running.if pressure too high the plunger moves to allow some oil back to sump.

If the oil pump drained dry of oil while standing that could explain why insufficient suction to pull oil up from sump.


I have not built one of these pumps .

cheers. so the relief valvle is exactly as it should be and as I expected it should be. again. once things get to this point and as a favour to a friend it all get's a bit vague in the old memory banks. usually like to get it all done in one go.

allright. i'll pack with vasoline today. remove the grease i prepped yesterday. don't want to spin a bearing! Try again and hope it builds some propper pressure. otherwise it's aux pump removal time. Im in the netherlands and they are thin on the ground.

My theory of unprimed pump seems to gel with the first time it wouldn't build pressure. although even then after priming via the pickup tube it still wouldn't. only with grease did it build pressure and the top end stil sounded dry. So i wonder if the grease didn't just build enough resistance in the pipe that has the sensor on it. Anyone have a flow diagram of these 8140 engines as far as the oil goes? I know it should just fire up, build pressure and be good. I might ben in denial with regards to the aux pump assembly's state and or a seal that may have pinched during assembly but I'm hoping to get it done today.

 

[jackwhoo]

You should see plenty of oil splashing around the camshaft /valve train when engine running and warm.
If you don't see plenty of oil round camshaft ,hook up an oil pressure gauge and check running oil pressure .....

 

[bugsymike]

After the initial engine running dry and failing, on strip down was there any signs of scoring or other damage to the gears and housing of the oil pump.
From what you describe it does seem to have an issue sucking up the oil in the first place.
If you are going to fire it up again before 100% sure of a cure it may be an idea to do it with the cam cover off and pour .5 litre of engine oil across the lobes bearings, followers etc. as on initial restart they are the last to see fresh oil. It will only get messy when oil is actually pumping , so I am sure you would be happy at that point.
Also if viable prime via oil switch or similar.
Apart from all the points raised, as a last resort and with precautions (as in don't turn the key!!!! ) could you remove cam belt and turn drive pulley of oil pump housing assembly using a manual speed brace or similar in correct direction, if it is going to draw up oil then you should seem some signs by trying that.
As you are mechanically trained I won't labour the point about cambelt.
Re the manual lift pump on housing I think you will only find that on older 2.5s as most engines still around are 2.8s and even they are pretty rare.
The spring side of the pressure relief valve is correctly functioning?
It may be worth checking the downloads on Forum, possibly under "Iveco Daily 2.5 & 2.8 Engines" etc. I used to have a CD with a lot on, but gave it to a neighbours son when he ran Iveco Daily car transporter as I was retiring several years ago.
The main difference is the Daily engine is RWD and inline so the Ducato engine bottom end is designed to run on a slant and left to right as FWD.
As oil has to be "sucked up" to oil pump via that housing and it's O rings I would be suspicious of that area after all the other things you have checked. Sorry I can't be much help as the last ones I worked on were around 20 years ago.
Finally and unlikely, there are no signs of oil from bell housing etc. like the very large rear main oil seal behind the flywheel, it would have to be massive though.

 

[Communicator]

The attached documents have been extracted from eLearn for the x244 2.8jtd, A quick browse suggests that there may be some useful info residing there.

Also attached is Iveco Daily page relating to the sub assembly, which is similar.

 

[Scuby]

After the initial engine running dry and failing, on strip down was there any signs of scoring or other damage to the gears and housing of the oil pump.
From what you describe it does seem to have an issue sucking up the oil in the first place.
If you are going to fire it up again before 100% sure of a cure it may be an idea to do it with the cam cover off and pour .5 litre of engine oil across the lobes bearings, followers etc. as on initial restart they are the last to see fresh oil. It will only get messy when oil is actually pumping , so I am sure you would be happy at that point.
Also if viable prime via oil switch or similar.
Apart from all the points raised, as a last resort and with precautions (as in don't turn the key!!!! ) could you remove cam belt and turn drive pulley of oil pump housing assembly using a manual speed brace or similar in correct direction, if it is going to draw up oil then you should seem some signs by trying that.
As you are mechanically trained I won't labour the point about cambelt.
Re the manual lift pump on housing I think you will only find that on older 2.5s as most engines still around are 2.8s and even they are pretty rare.
The spring side of the pressure relief valve is correctly functioning?
It may be worth checking the downloads on Forum, possibly under "Iveco Daily 2.5 & 2.8 Engines" etc. I used to have a CD with a lot on, but gave it to a neighbours son when he ran Iveco Daily car transporter as I was retiring several years ago.
The main difference is the Daily engine is RWD and inline so the Ducato engine bottom end is designed to run on a slant and left to right as FWD.
As oil has to be "sucked up" to oil pump via that housing and it's O rings I would be suspicious of that area after all the other things you have checked. Sorry I can't be much help as the last ones I worked on were around 20 years ago.
Finally and unlikely, there are no signs of oil from bell housing etc. like the very large rear main oil seal behind the flywheel, it would have to be massive though.

No signs of any scoring or damage to the entire aux assembly. When cleaned no debris was found either which is why I chose not to replace it. It all stayed in the pickup screen and the pan. It was a bearing, a bit of con-rod and a bit of crankshafts worth though. A lot of big chunks. When I pulled the oil drain plug I'd say about 500ml came out. I've never smelled burned engine oil before.

Good idea on the removing the cam belt to prime it. I'm going to use a brake bleeding tool I have and try and suck oil up and out of the pickup tube via the aux housing. If that fails, as in: can't get a good seal on it I'm going to reprime as much as possible and then put some petroleum jelly in the gears, put it all back together, remove the valve cover, lube from up top and cross my fingers. I'll give it another 30 seconds or so max. If that fails the aux assembly is coming off

 

[bugsymike]

The attached documents have been extracted from eLearn for the x244 2.8jtd, A quick browse suggests that there may be some useful info residing there.

Also attached is Iveco Daily page relating to the sub assembly, which is similar.

Useful details of checking oil pump gears.

 

[Scuby]

Heres how it all looks. I cant fathom why this builds zero pressure when packed with vaseline and printed with oil. Pulling the aux houding in the fwd setup is a nightmare id rather not get started on if i can avoid it. Looking at the engine where should it be drawing oil from; which gallery is fed by the pickup tube? Using a little shop air i can hear oil bubbling in the pan so the path is clear...

 

[bugsymike]

The score makes in the aluminium housing in first photo don't look good, how do they and the measurements @Communicator posted compare.
Sorry I don't know which is oil feed from pick up tube.
Trust not too much air blown may damage O rings in housings.
You can see why I prefer the RWD Iveco Daily's with those engines as much easier access to ancilaries.

 

[Scuby]

The score makes in the aluminium housing in first photo don't look good, how do they and the measurements @Communicator posted compare.
Sorry I don't know which is oil feed from pick up tube.
Trust not too much air blown may damage O rings in housings.
You can see why I prefer the RWD Iveco Daily's with those engines as much easier access to ancilaries.

rwd is always better in my book in any application

But indeed. the score marks I noticed today for the first time. I'm wondering if they are preventing a good sealing surface and not creating suction. the question is can I get away with leaving the aux in place and sourcing the mid-plate somewhere. It would save quite a lot of work on this vehicle

the gears themselves look to be ok. This pump has been run dry of course, or thereabouts. the oil pan had about 500ml in it when I drained it.

Didn't apply too much pressure at all, weary of o-rings/sealing surfaces and seals popping out of place...

 

[Scuby]

The score makes in the aluminium housing in first photo don't look good, how do they and the measurements @Communicator posted compare.
Sorry I don't know which is oil feed from pick up tube.
Trust not too much air blown may damage O rings in housings.
You can see why I prefer the RWD Iveco Daily's with those engines as much easier access to ancilaries.

the teeth are within spec... I agree the scoring in the surface of the housing is worrysome

 

[bugsymike]

the teeth are within spec... I agree the scoring in the surface of the housing is worrysome

It's always a job to know how much it would have got away with for years or is the cause of problems.
Is it feasible to clean up the flat plate on a surface plate with a bit of fine emery paper?
Where the download showed measuring with a feeler gauge were you able to check that bit?

 

[jackwhoo]

Is the oil filter paper blocked with grease causing problems?

Cranking on starter with oil filter unscrewed so the oil filter rubber seal is not touching the oil filter face should make it easier for pump to prime. When oil is pumped out tighten oil filter.