You don't understand me, i'm afraid... As i said i know how to do the cambelt change, Punto is easy and i did it earlier, but that was a pre-face version. And i don't want to change the cambelt on this one because it has been changed not long ago together with the WP and tensioner. My problem is, i'm not sure if the new belt is aligned right. And since i have no information how the belt supposed be mounted on this this after face engine, and since there is no mark on the cylinder head, i have no reference. Get me now?
Technical Cam belt change, mk2b 1.2 8v
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Technical Cam belt change, mk2b 1.2 8v
Lets look at this logically
You only need to 'time' 2 things..
Crank and Cam
Crank needs TDC
Cam will need a set point..
You dont trust the marking on the Cam pully..
Is there a Slot..or Notch in the cam that is supposed to be 'locked'in a set position
Sometimes its a hole you can place an 8.0mm drill into
The crank is easy to set right? If i set the flywheel notch to the "0" mark on the bellhousing, that is my TDC, i'm i right?
On the cam pully there is a mark, what should be aligned to the mark on the cylinder head. And that mark on the head which is missing. So i don't know the right position of the cam... I don't really know what kind of slot you mean... can you attach a picture of it?
On the cam pully there is a mark, what should be aligned to the mark on the cylinder head. And that mark on the head which is missing. So i don't know the right position of the cam... I don't really know what kind of slot you mean... can you attach a picture of it?
Now i'm able to link photos. So here is how my flywheel is set, exactly at 0 degree. And the position of the cam, as you can see, there is a mark on the cam but no mark on the head. The third photo is which i found on the net, taht is the pre-face 1.2 8V. There is a mark on the head, and for me it looks like that on that engine the cam is lower, at least one tooth. That's why i think, maybe the belt/cam on mine is misaligned...
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Go for that.. compare if it runs better..or worse
Then - if you are still looking..
Remove the cover and check the Camshaft for alignment
(The top pulley is on a collet.. so can be shifted around relative to the cams)
Then - if you are still looking..
Remove the cover and check the Camshaft for alignment
(The top pulley is on a collet.. so can be shifted around relative to the cams)
Hello Forgonati and welcome.
I've messed about quite a bit with these engines in the Panda range (owned a few from a '99 Panda Parade to our current 2010 1.2 dynamic eco) so basically exactly the same engine. As you tell us it has the round oil filler cap we'll not bother talking about the earlier versions (which as you say have the square rubber filler cap and, on the early ones, a thinner belt with courser tooth pitch) So the engines with the round filler caps are what they call EVO 2 engines. Here are a couple of forum threads which are relevant:
Andy Monty's definitive version: https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto-guides/237966-1-2-8v-evo-2-engine-cam-belt-replacement.html
and my own humble offering: https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/459903-beckys-timing-belt-ongoing-saga.html
All 60 HP engines have a solid cam pulley/sprocket like the one shown in the pictures you have posted and these engines were produced until sometime in 2011 (maybe early 2012) they were then superseded by the 69 HP engine which has a Variable timing cam pulley which you can see in the "add on" Andy has included in his feature. The 69 HP engine was used in some of the very last of the 169 model run and got a reputation for not being as good a "driver" as the 60 HP. However we can forget about the VVT engine because yours is too early and obviously has a solid cast cam sprocket.
Earlier engines were, as you have found out, easily timed by lining up the timing marks - the crankshaft has them on the flywheel and the bottom belt sprocket (the mark on the sprocket is lined up with a mark on the oil pump casing) and the camshaft sprocket mark is lined up with the mark which is shown on the head in your biggest picture. At some point in the engine's life, and I think all evo2 engines are like this, they started producing them with a "free fitting" camshaft sprocket. These sprockets do not have a locating dowel/key like the earlier engines and NO TIMING MARK ON THEIR HEAD. I believe your engine is one of these (more on it in a minute) - Mine is a 2010 60 HP engine and is like this. Another pointer is that if you look at the larger picture of the sprocket you found and posted you can see a drilled hole in the face near the bolt this is the hole the dowel in the cam locates into. I've magnified the wee picture of your actual sprocket (upper left in your post) and there's no hole is there? Something else I've noticed on the ones I've worked on is that the Sprockets with the dowel/key are held onto the cam with a hex headed bolt (as in your big picture) whereas the "free" pulleys are held by a big Torx bolt. I think the edge of the bolt in you upper left picture - and I can only just see the edge of it - looks more like a Torx than a hex head?
So my guess, and that's all it can be without actually seeing the car, is that you've got a "free" sprocket here. Now the problem here is that the sprocket, having no dowel/key, can theoretically, be tightened in any position relative to the camshaft. Because once that securing bolt/Torx is slackened the sprocket is free to spin on the end of the camshaft - It drives simply because the bolt/torx is done up so tight that it locks the sprocket to the cam by friction, no dowel, no taper, no splines, just a very very tight bolt (and people have reported problems with slackening and retightening them because of this! So, if you've read Andy's (excellent) guide, you'll understand that the only way you are really going to be able to be sure the timing is "right" is to set it up with the proper timing tools - there are no reference timing marks - and, because you didn't do the last belt on it, you have no idea whether the person who did it actually set it up right?
Alright all you other knowledgeable "clever clogs" on here, please chime in now and tell me what I've missed or advised wrongly here?
PS sorry for the "welcome" bit at the beginning. Not that you're not welcome, indeed you are! I just got you mixed up with someone else I was "chatting" to.
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Wow, thanks for this very detailed writing mate, this helps me a lot!
I just went down to the car and you are completely right. The cam pully doesn't have that hex bolt, it is a torx head bolt, see my photo. Didn't know that they made these strange engines, it seems that they have modified some things on them... Even the air filter housing is completely different here, not the well known rounded shape, this one takes a rectangle shaped air filter. And i just noticed that this engine has that more modern metal head gasket, which is very good in my opinion, because old 1.2s had problems with blown head gaskets...
For me it is a mystery why the hell they got rid of that goddamn mark on the cylinder head, with that it would be much easier... If i compare it with the old 1.2 8V engine, it seems that the timing is off on my engine by at least 1 tooth. And after some digging i found out that the thin (15mm) and thick (22mm) belts have indentical amount of teeths, 129. So the tooth density must be the same... Which for me indicates that my belt is almost certainly off...
I just went down to the car and you are completely right. The cam pully doesn't have that hex bolt, it is a torx head bolt, see my photo. Didn't know that they made these strange engines, it seems that they have modified some things on them... Even the air filter housing is completely different here, not the well known rounded shape, this one takes a rectangle shaped air filter. And i just noticed that this engine has that more modern metal head gasket, which is very good in my opinion, because old 1.2s had problems with blown head gaskets...
For me it is a mystery why the hell they got rid of that goddamn mark on the cylinder head, with that it would be much easier... If i compare it with the old 1.2 8V engine, it seems that the timing is off on my engine by at least 1 tooth. And after some digging i found out that the thin (15mm) and thick (22mm) belts have indentical amount of teeths, 129. So the tooth density must be the same... Which for me indicates that my belt is almost certainly off...
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Great, we're making progress now!Wow, thanks for this very detailed writing mate, this helps me a lot!
I just went down to the car and you are completely right. The cam pully doesn't have that hex bolt, it is a torx head bolt, see my photo. Didn't know that they made these strange engines, it seems that they have modified some things on them... Even the air filter housing is completely different here, not the well known rounded shape, this one takes a rectangle shaped air filter. And i just noticed that this engine has that more modern metal head gasket, which is very good in my opinion, because old 1.2s had problems with blown head gaskets...
For me it is a mystery why the hell they got rid of that goddamn mark on the cylinder head, with that it would be much easier... If i compare it with the old 1.2 8V engine, it seems that the timing is off on my engine by at least 1 tooth. And after some digging i found out that the thin (15mm) and thick (22mm) belts have indentical amount of teeths, 129. So the tooth density must be the same... Which for me indicates that my belt is almost certainly off...
First thing to say is, don't get too confident about your head gasket! Yes these engines are robust wee units, a lot tougher than some I can think of. But, they do not like running low on coolant at all! Keep a regular check on coolant level, listen for gurgling sounds from the heater matrix and top up if necessary and you'll be fine. If unexplained water loss starts to be a problem and no obvious reason presents then carefully check the metal water pipe that runs along behind the exhaust manifold/downpipe which is well known to leak.
Now to the timing problem. Again, it's difficult for me to be sure sitting up here in Edinburgh, but all the indicators seem to be that your engine is the type, like mine, with a "free" cam sprocket/pulley. Trying to compare this with the older, admittedly very similar looking, engine is pointless because it, the older engine, has a keyed pulley. Yours probably does not. So, if it is a "free" pulley the notch mark on the pulley is absolutely redundant and has no relevance. The only way you can properly check the timing on the "free" engines is by taking off the belt guards and locking up the crankshaft with the locking tool you'll have seen in Andy and my posts. Then, after removing the cam cover, see if the locking bar fits into the slot on the end of the cam itself (that's the end of the cam nearest the battery. Unfortunately, if it is, as it seems to be, the later engine with the "free" pulley/sprocket (I prefer sprocket) you absolutely can not use any marks you may find to check it. Sorry, you will need the timing tools.
I don't know what your level of ability/knowledge may be, but if you can do this yourself you may find your local trade factor will rent you a timing tool kit. There are a couple up here who have quite a good sideline going renting timing tools to the trade and, last time I asked, they were prepared to rent to Home Mechanics for a returnable deposit to the value of the tool kit plus a rental fee. If you got the guards and cam cover dismantled before renting you will only need the tools for an hour or so to do the check so cost should be minimal. Then you would know if you've got a timing problem or not and make the decision, if you find a discrepancy, whether to attempt repair yourself or hand over to a work shop.
About the head gasket, i'm pretty sure that this metal gasket is waaay more reliable than the old composite asbest/graphite style which is prone to blow, the coolant simply eats them over these years. So i'm happy to have the new steel-type gasket. I have no problem with water, or anything related to the head gasket.
About that "free" sprocket. I think, it still would have been useful to have the mark on the head. Why? When you change the belt, you don't need to take off the sprocket, there is absolutely not necessary to mess with that sprocket bolt, i have changed the timing on a few cars (including my own Punto a few years ago), i never touched the sprocket, why would i? No need to. So in regards to the belt change, it doesn't matter if you have the older or the newer style "free" sprocket, since you don't need to touch it. It has been mounted in the factory, and you dont need to take it off for belt change. The previuos owner did not touch it as well, i'm pretty sure, because the bolt is completely intakt, it has no scratches, absolutely no signs what would indicate that somebody had tried to make it loose. looks like brand new. And as you can see, THERE IS A MARK on my sprocket, if it would be unnecessary, why Fiat would put the mark onto it??? But i still don't know, where should i set that mark since there is no mark on the cylinder head...
I just noticed, there are 3 marks on the timing belt (don't ask me why 3, 2 would be enough) that should indicate the correct alignment. So probably i will take the belt off, set the crank to the DTC (0 deg on the flywheel) ant try to put back the belt, set the mark on the belt to the mark on the cam sprocket. And we will see.
About that "free" sprocket. I think, it still would have been useful to have the mark on the head. Why? When you change the belt, you don't need to take off the sprocket, there is absolutely not necessary to mess with that sprocket bolt, i have changed the timing on a few cars (including my own Punto a few years ago), i never touched the sprocket, why would i? No need to. So in regards to the belt change, it doesn't matter if you have the older or the newer style "free" sprocket, since you don't need to touch it. It has been mounted in the factory, and you dont need to take it off for belt change. The previuos owner did not touch it as well, i'm pretty sure, because the bolt is completely intakt, it has no scratches, absolutely no signs what would indicate that somebody had tried to make it loose. looks like brand new. And as you can see, THERE IS A MARK on my sprocket, if it would be unnecessary, why Fiat would put the mark onto it??? But i still don't know, where should i set that mark since there is no mark on the cylinder head...
I just noticed, there are 3 marks on the timing belt (don't ask me why 3, 2 would be enough) that should indicate the correct alignment. So probably i will take the belt off, set the crank to the DTC (0 deg on the flywheel) ant try to put back the belt, set the mark on the belt to the mark on the cam sprocket. And we will see.
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Ok, I'm not saying your head gasket is liable to fail, just that it's well known that if you run the coolant low then it probably will - and there are lots of posts on here to support that.
Regarding the issues around having a "free" sprocket and how to deal with it. If you read my post about what I found out doing Becky's belt then you'll know my thinking on the subject and I don't think there's anything more to be gained by "wishing" for things to be different? it is what it is and you just have to work with it?
Here's an interesting video which shows the relevance of the three coloured lines on the VVT engine - this one in a Ford Ka but, effectively a Fiat engine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxJjFLfVlPM&t=1380s I've not come across a Fiat engine with the coloured marks yet (my boy's 2012 Punto 1.4 8 valve VVT doesn't have them)
Anyway, whatever you end up doing, I wish you good luck and hope it doesn't cost too much.
It won't cost me anything. It is a safe engine, you simply cannot mess it up, even if you totally misalign te belt, the valves cannot reach the pistons. The only thing what it will cost me, is time. Which i don't mind, at least i will learn something new.
The belt has 3 white lines, nothing more, i think that supposed to indicate the right alignment. Probably i just have to take the belt off, set the crank to TDC, put the belt back with lines on the belt matching wit hte mark on the crank sprocket, then try to set the cam matching with the other line on the belt. Why is the 3. line on the belt? Who knows. I will play with it when i have time.
I won't touch the sprocket, i still think, it doesn't matter if i have old style or new style sprocket, since the sprocket is mounted by the factory and it doesn't have to come off for belt replacement. So for me, in this situation, the type of the sprocket doesn't play any role... The only thing what i need to know, the right position of the cam. Where the mark on the sprocket needs to be EXACTLY. I will search further, maybe i will find a photo somewhere on the net, about the right sprocket position on this exact version of 1.2 8V.
Thanks for the videos, much appreciated.
The belt has 3 white lines, nothing more, i think that supposed to indicate the right alignment. Probably i just have to take the belt off, set the crank to TDC, put the belt back with lines on the belt matching wit hte mark on the crank sprocket, then try to set the cam matching with the other line on the belt. Why is the 3. line on the belt? Who knows. I will play with it when i have time.
I won't touch the sprocket, i still think, it doesn't matter if i have old style or new style sprocket, since the sprocket is mounted by the factory and it doesn't have to come off for belt replacement. So for me, in this situation, the type of the sprocket doesn't play any role... The only thing what i need to know, the right position of the cam. Where the mark on the sprocket needs to be EXACTLY. I will search further, maybe i will find a photo somewhere on the net, about the right sprocket position on this exact version of 1.2 8V.
Thanks for the videos, much appreciated.
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Good luck forgonati. You seem, like me, to be a bit of a perfectionist. By which I mean I like things to be "just right" so things like this preoccupy me on my own vehicles (just look at how involved I got with Becky when I did her cam belt).
Taking into consideration all the info you've given here and if we assume the engine has the "free" type cam sprocket, I really do think the only way you're going to know for sure whether the valve timing on this engine is correctly set is to check it using a set of dedicated timing tools.
The choice is your's of course, so, in the words of Dirty Harry, "Are you feeling lucky?"
Please do keep us informed as to how this pans out won't you? I'm fascinated to find out how you resolve it.
Kind regards
Jock
Taking into consideration all the info you've given here and if we assume the engine has the "free" type cam sprocket, I really do think the only way you're going to know for sure whether the valve timing on this engine is correctly set is to check it using a set of dedicated timing tools.
The choice is your's of course, so, in the words of Dirty Harry, "Are you feeling lucky?"
Please do keep us informed as to how this pans out won't you? I'm fascinated to find out how you resolve it.
Kind regards
Jock
