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Technical Topping Up Dualogic Hydraulic Actuator Oil

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Technical Topping Up Dualogic Hydraulic Actuator Oil

bigshorty

bigshorty

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Hi All

I've just been checking the hydraulic actuator reservoir fluid level on my Dualogic Panda because my gear changes seem very jerky, and been getting a lot of juddering when pulling away from cold. I've noticed that there is hardly any fluid in the reservoir, just a dribble right at the bottom. I didn't open the drivers door, so have not allowed the hydraulic actuator pump to run.

Is this normal, or should the level be visible in the reservoir? I personally couldn't see any max / min markers on the reservoir.

If it does need topping up, is it ok to just top it up as you would any other fluid level or is there a special procedure that needs to be followed? I know the oil that's needed, just need to know the topping up process.

The main worry though, is if the hydraulic fluid level I've got in my Panda isn't normal, then where has the fluid gone? I've noticed some wetness underneath the engine, around the casing linked to the driveshaft.

Any thoughts, help and advice on this would be really appreciated.
 
It should be topped up to at least the 'min' mark. It was recommended to me by a Fiat agent not to actually top up to the 'max' mark, for reasons unexplained. One of the Fiats that I had had a manufacturing fault on the reservoir bottle that had a slow leak on it , which can be checked by topping up and then go over the bottle with a paper towel to see if there's a leak . Use the CS Speed oil though
 
DavyP said:
It should be topped up to at least the 'min' mark. It was recommended to me by a Fiat agent not to actually top up to the 'max' mark, for reasons unexplained. One of the Fiats that I had had a manufacturing fault on the reservoir bottle that had a slow leak on it , which can be checked by topping up and then go over the bottle with a paper towel to see if there's a leak . Use the CS Speed oil though
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, I'll definitely do what you have mentioned, see what results I get.

Just so I know, it's definitely ok to just top up the fluid level? No special procedures to be aware of?
 
When you asked about the Dualogic before one of the messages said that air should be purged by the system when it was operating in normal use. I'm afraid I haven't found this to be true, but there again there are very few actual experts, so it could be true In my experience the system has to be purged as quoted in the setting up manual. You might be lucky and find that just topping up clears your problem; I hope so. Otherwise make sure you don't get any dirt in with the fluid.
I see that one of the replies is from Dorset too..... Could be handy ...
There must be hundreds of pages on the forum about Dualogic, Some from south America are particularly interesting. as they suggest where the hydraulic fluid could be disappearing to. Unfortunately it means dismantling the selespeed unit to replace o rings which Fiat would rather sell the whole unit.
 
jrkitching said:
Those in the know say that the system is supposed to be depressurised before checking or topping up the level. Multiecuscan can do this, or you can try this procedure.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice and links, I think I'm going to purchase MES anyway, could prove quite useful.

One thing I wanted to ask, with the Panda being parked up since mid afternoon yesterday, to me checking the CS speed fluid level earlier today (almost 24 hours), would the system have depressurised naturally, or does it hold pressure constantly? I only ask as if it does depressurise, then from what I've read the level rises in the reservoir, and if that is correct then my fluid level is very low, it was right at the bottom of the reservoir. I've also read the CS speed fluid is quite light in colour, however I shone a torch through the reservoir from the bottom of it (which is how I knew the level was near the bottom), and thought it looked quite dark. Just mentioning what I noticed just in case it helps.
 
DavyP said:
When you asked about the Dualogic before one of the messages said that air should be purged by the system when it was operating in normal use. I'm afraid I haven't found this to be true, but there again there are very few actual experts, so it could be true In my experience the system has to be purged as quoted in the setting up manual. You might be lucky and find that just topping up clears your problem; I hope so. Otherwise make sure you don't get any dirt in with the fluid.
I see that one of the replies is from Dorset too..... Could be handy ...
There must be hundreds of pages on the forum about Dualogic, Some from south America are particularly interesting. as they suggest where the hydraulic fluid could be disappearing to. Unfortunately it means dismantling the selespeed unit to replace o rings which Fiat would rather sell the whole unit.
Click to expand...

Cheers for your reply and the info. You mention purging the system as quoted in the setting up manual, can you tell me what this manual is, and where I might be able to get a copy. I didn't get any manuals with the car when I bought it.
 
My information is that it's not really "normal" to top up a Dualogic at all.
The factory fill should last until the pump or accumulator is replaced, at which point the fluid is replaced anyway, although I have seen a (non-Fiat) document which says fluid & accumulator should be changed when clutch plate is changed. The same document also seemed to hint that the clutch in a Dualogic would be expected to last quite a bit longer than a manual despite using the same components.
Could be right - computer will only make clean changes, etc.

Many Dualogics apparently go their entire lifetime on that original fill. And are trouble-free.
I think Fiat intended the design life to equal or exceed the rest of the car. That may be why they don't really list any service parts.

The problems come when leaks develop. Usually seals which cannot be replaced without dismantling the unit.

Constant purging and topping up is a sign of problems, usually leaks, NOT normal operation. In normal operation there is no need to purge air as it does not enter the system. However, the design of the hydraulic circuit would displace any small amount of trapped air. The purge procedure would just do it quicker.

There are people who are fully capable of replacing any or all of the seals on a leaking unit. The problem is that on a 10+ year old car the labour costs usually mean it is uneconomic. The seals only cost a few pence each.
DavyP are you sure you don't have a failing accumulator? When the diaphragm fails the fluid level drops, and Nitrogen bubbles appear in the fluid (from the wrong side of the diaphragm). Purging and topping up will work for a while but usually the motor fails quite soon after, as there is no "storage" for pressure so it has to run much more often.
 
I agree with everything you say. I don't have problems at the moment, just trying to pass on what I've learned over the years.
 
Right, thinking about it I'm going to have to take this one step at a time, and the first step is to determine whether I have a fluid leak or not before I do anything else. I'm going to clean the area up as best as I can, and then keep a close eye around the dualogic system and see if I notice any fresh fluid marks. I'll depressurise the system and check fluid level first, just to see if the low reading I got is accurate, if it is low then I'll top up and then keep checking for new fluid leaks. I think thats all I can do for now!

I really appreciate all your thought, comments and advice regarding this and I will let you know in due course what I discover.
 
irc said:
My information is that it's not really "normal" to top up a Dualogic at all.
The factory fill should last until the pump or accumulator is replaced, at which point the fluid is replaced anyway, although I have seen a (non-Fiat) document which says fluid & accumulator should be changed when clutch plate is changed. The same document also seemed to hint that the clutch in a Dualogic would be expected to last quite a bit longer than a manual despite using the same components.
Could be right - computer will only make clean changes, etc.

Many Dualogics apparently go their entire lifetime on that original fill. And are trouble-free.
I think Fiat intended the design life to equal or exceed the rest of the car. That may be why they don't really list any service parts.

The problems come when leaks develop. Usually seals which cannot be replaced without dismantling the unit.

Constant purging and topping up is a sign of problems, usually leaks, NOT normal operation. In normal operation there is no need to purge air as it does not enter the system. However, the design of the hydraulic circuit would displace any small amount of trapped air. The purge procedure would just do it quicker.

There are people who are fully capable of replacing any or all of the seals on a leaking unit. The problem is that on a 10+ year old car the labour costs usually mean it is uneconomic. The seals only cost a few pence each.
DavyP are you sure you don't have a failing accumulator? When the diaphragm fails the fluid level drops, and Nitrogen bubbles appear in the fluid (from the wrong side of the diaphragm). Purging and topping up will work for a while but usually the motor fails quite soon after, as there is no "storage" for pressure so it has to run much more often.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:
 
Hi everyone. I am writing to you from Poland. Although we like Fiats and we drive a lot of 500 models, the ones with the DUALOGIC gearbox are in the minority and there is little information about the exchange of oil in them.

I have a question for you regarding the independent oil change in the DUALOGIC module. It's about TUTELA CS SPEED oil.

Is there still high pressure when the car is turned off and the aku is disconnected in the plastic reservoir? Or not? And can I worry about unscrewing the plastic cap at the top and suck out all the liquid first and then pour a new one?

Do I unfortunately need to first reduce the pressure in the system using a diagnostic computer.

Below is a preview image

[URL = https: //www.fotosik.pl/zdjecie/pelne/264aad14eaeeb654]
URL]
 
System should be depressurised before working on it. MultiECUScan can do this.
It can also tell you what the current pressure is.
And repressurise it when finished.
And diagnose most problems (or at least give some direction on repairs).

Just wondering why are you intending to change the hydraulic fluid?
Unless it has been contaminated, it probably should not really need changing, unless you are changing the accumulator too.

What problem do you have?
 
Not to suggest parts swaps are a sensible way to find faults, but Shop4Parts have Duologic accumulators at reasonable costs.
 
Hello All

My in-laws have a 2008 Dualogic with a 1.2 petrol engine.

Its been mostly OK , just selected 'false neutral' a couple of times under hard acceleration. I solved that by following the advice to carefully clean & replace the battery terminals.

In this cold weather shes started to refuse to select a gear when starting from cold. I'm going to check the hydraulic fluid level first.

Can anyone tell me where the reservoir is?

cheers
Gareth
 
The reservoir is under a splash/heat shield on the front of the gearbox.

However, there is a procedure for checking it, which I can't remember in detail at the moment. Don't assume it's a simple check-level-and-top-up coz it ain't.

Mine also takes a few seconds to select first in very cold weather. It has since I've had it, and 20k further on it still does. Especially when it hasn't been used for a couple of days. No idea whether it is normal or not, but it hasn't improved or deteriorated at all in that time.

If you do need to top up, use the correct CS-speed fluid. However, they don't use fluid, so if it's low there's a reason. Could be accumulator (easy fix) or leak (not easy fix).
 
Sorry to jump on here does anybody know the weight of accumulator when empty and off car

Does 845 grams sound good
 
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