Northern Auto Tech - ECU and Blue & Me Repairs

Technical Can a "NON" CAN-Bus engine be used in a CAN-Bus environment. ??

Currently reading:
Technical Can a "NON" CAN-Bus engine be used in a CAN-Bus environment. ??

The Pretender

The Pretender

Patron member
Parked in the garage
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
3,914
Points
1,012
Location
The Centre
Would it possible to make a NON CAN-Bus engine to work in a CAN-Bus environment. ??
You can change/replace a cable throttle body for a fly by wire throttle body to upgrade the engine to modern technology, but what else have to be done to make it work. ??
 
The Pretender said:
Would it possible to make a NON CAN-Bus engine to work in a CAN-Bus environment. ??
You can change/replace a cable throttle body for a fly by wire throttle body to upgrade the engine to modern technology, but what else have to be done to make it work. ??
Click to expand...

A NON CAN bus engine will work in a CAN bus car if you keep all it's non-can parts like ecu and throttle. It's the rest of the car that may not be happy e.g. no speedo or other gauges and warning lights, CODE system issues etc.


Robert G8RPI.
 
The answer will really depend on what exactly you are trying to do, and with what engine.

If you have broken the original engine and have sourced an older replacement, you may struggle with some aspects. As you have posted in Panda '2012-', and are thinking of an older engine, I'm assuming 1.2. Your original engine would be 70hp, variable valve timing. Any non-CANBUS engine will be 60hp. The engine can be physically fitted, but the existing electronics will not be able to cope with not having the valve actuator. If the original camshaft is ok, you might need to change the heads over, as a simple cam swap I doubt will work, as the other end is different, due to older engines expecting a distributor drive.

There may be other issues. Tell us more about what and why.
 
portland_bill said:
The answer will really depend on what exactly you are trying to do, and with what engine.

If you have broken the original engine and have sourced an older replacement, you may struggle with some aspects. As you have posted in Panda '2012-', and are thinking of an older engine, I'm assuming 1.2. Your original engine would be 70hp, variable valve timing. Any non-CANBUS engine will be 60hp. The engine can be physically fitted, but the existing electronics will not be able to cope with not having the valve actuator. If the original camshaft is ok, you might need to change the heads over, as a simple cam swap I doubt will work, as the other end is different, due to older engines expecting a distributor drive.

There may be other issues. Tell us more about what and why.
Click to expand...

I was more thinking about a 1.8ltr Barchetta engine to replace the 1.2ltr FIRE. ;)
 
The Pretender said:
I was more thinking about a 1.8ltr Barchetta engine to replace the 1.2ltr FIRE. ;)
Click to expand...

That's a hell of a challenge.
The 1.8 engine will of course not work with the 1.2 engine ECU.
The car will not easily connect to the car body ECU, as it was not programmed to. It is possible (a guess), that the body ECU would tolerate being connected to a 1.1, 1.2, 1.4 or 1.3d engine ECU, if it was told to via a 'proxy alignment' using MES or dealer program.
The key immobiliser has to be accepted by both the body and engine ECUs.

I doubt Fiat would be interested in helping, as it is out of any normal spec.

If the original ECUs for the car, and the engine one from the Barchetta are all from the same manufacturer, an email to that manufacturer might get some help. They might say no, or you might find someone who would like a challenge.

Good luck with that.

A thought. If you found an engine from any other 5-door Fiat, it might be possible to transfer both ECUs, and the Panda would spend the rest of its life thinking it was the other car. Some wiring issues may occur. The Barchetta body computer would of course not know about the Panda rear doors, so no central locking or interior lights, etc. Similarly any airbags not replicated in the Barchetta might become inoperative.
 
portland_bill said:
That's a hell of a challenge.
The 1.8 engine will of course not work with the 1.2 engine ECU.
The car will not easily connect to the car body ECU, as it was not programmed to. It is possible (a guess), that the body ECU would tolerate being connected to a 1.1, 1.2, 1.4 or 1.3d engine ECU, if it was told to via a 'proxy alignment' using MES or dealer program.
The key immobiliser has to be accepted by both the body and engine ECUs.

I doubt Fiat would be interested in helping, as it is out of any normal spec.

If the original ECUs for the car, and the engine one from the Barchetta are all from the same manufacturer, an email to that manufacturer might get some help. They might say no, or you might find someone who would like a challenge.

Good luck with that.

A thought. If you found an engine from any other 5-door Fiat, it might be possible to transfer both ECUs, and the Panda would spend the rest of its life thinking it was the other car. Some wiring issues may occur. The Barchetta body computer would of course not know about the Panda rear doors, so no central locking or interior lights, etc. Similarly any airbags not replicated in the Barchetta might become inoperative.
Click to expand...

I think that is the difficult route, why not let the 1.2ltr Engine ECU believe he is still operating a 1.2ltr engine, but in fact he is operating a 1.8ltr engine. ;)
 
The Pretender said:
I think that is the difficult route, why not let the 1.2ltr Engine ECU believe he is still operating a 1.2ltr engine, but in fact he is operating a 1.8ltr engine. ;)
Click to expand...

That is an option using a bridge device to translate between the engine and body computer (BC). I don't know the 1.8 B engine but you would probably have to disable the immobiliser or if it's a simple transponder, add it to your key ring and add the reader coil. As a minimum you would have to provide speed and engine status signals to the BC. A Microchip PIC and CAN driver chip (or ELM 327 chip) would do it (or even an Arduino
yuck.gif
).
You might have to dummy up some other parameters too.


Robert G8RPI.
 
The Pretender said:
I think that is the difficult route, why not let the 1.2ltr Engine ECU believe he is still operating a 1.2ltr engine, but in fact he is operating a 1.8ltr engine. ;)
Click to expand...

If crank and cam sensors give the same signals, that may work, but maybe not well. May also need throttle position and airflow readings to be similar too.
The 1.2 ECU will try to fuel it as a 1.2. At tickover that may be enough.
As the throttle is opened, it reads throttle position. It will apply injector openings to suit, which will likely be insufficient. The lambda sensors will scream weak mixture, and the ECU will increase fuelling. But it has a limit of adjustment before it panics and lights the engine failure light. It may exceed its parameters.
If it also reads airflow, that will not match throttle opening for a 1.2, so may confuse the ECU.
As it will be operating the 1.8 injectors, they are probably bigger, so this may actually work.
Only way to tell might be to install it and try to run it. A lot of work if it all fails.

If you have MES and a working 1.2, and a working 1.8, it may be possible to get data of throttle openings and injector openings, airflow readings, etc., for running conditions, for both vehicles, and compare them. Might be close enough to work.
 
Years ago I put the flat twin engine from a BMW 700 Coupé in a Fiat 500 - 46 hp versus 18 - used to eat Mini Coopers for breakfast. Pleased to remember it was a purely mechanical exercise with no real problems other than beefing up the driveshafts. Times have changed.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

L
  • Question
Technical Can I use E10 unleaded in my 2016 Panda
Replies
17
Views
1K
The Panda Nut
The Panda Nut
H
  • Question
General Glove box…..can I fit?
Replies
5
Views
356
Harry Carry
H
L
General Where can I buy a ready painted front bumper from?
Replies
2
Views
256
jrkitching
J
W
Styling Does anyone know where I can buy the Blue
Replies
3
Views
189
Wesley03
W
B
General Proud to be a panda owner
Replies
0
Views
127
Big gerry
B
Back
Top