Register Login
Save up to 15% with Adrian Flux insurance!
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-03-2018   #1
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 3
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
panda 4x4 not working

Hi, i have just bought my first Panda 4x4 and i really like it. Never owned 4x4 before so its all new to me. Parked it on the grass outside my house over night when it threw it down with rain. Next morning found the front wheels had sunken down in the wet ground, no problem i thought. Started car up to move and front wheels started spinning, i was stuck! I thought the back wheels would grab the drier ground and get me moving, but the back wheels didnt go round at all, put the ELD on hoping that would get me out, but no, the back wheels remained stationary. So i have rung garage were i bought the car from and told them i think the 4 wheel drive isnt working, they going to check it for me. Any advice would be appreciated.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Jenn is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 12-03-2018   #2
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 737
Thanks: 59
Trader Rating: 0
simon_16vpunto has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: panda 4x4 not working

Does it have 4x4 stamped into the mouldings on the rear doors?
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

simon_16vpunto is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 12-03-2018   #3
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Faringdon, Oxfordshire UK
Posts: 5,588
Thanks: 439
Trader Rating: 1
portland_bill has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: panda 4x4 not working

Is the prop shaft there?
The centre bearing of the prop wears. From Fiat, you have to have a full prop, over 1000, but aftermarket centre bearings are available, so a repair is not difficult. There have been many owners found that the prop has been removed, to prevent the vibration from a dead centre bearing.

On the front of the diff is a viscous coupling. These can wear out. There's a recent thread about this, and a good result from a company that refurbished one. So no worries there either.

The seller might appreciate this info.
__________________
13 years motor trade, 16 years motor industry. 14 years Driving Instructor & 7 years Fleet Trainer
Panda Alessi
portland_bill is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 13-03-2018   #4
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: North Herts
Posts: 1,819
Thanks: 243
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: panda 4x4 not working

To Simon, if it has an ELD button, its a 4x4...

To Portland Bill - similar: if it has 'ELD' it is either the previous (pre 2012) 'Cross' model or a post 2o12 4x4 -- neither of which are likely to be sufficiently old to have had the prop shaft removed, especially if sold by a dealer as a 4x4. Post 2012 4x4 does not use a viscous coupling: its an electronically-operated system now (and was on the old 'Cross' too. Only the pre 2012 4x4 used a viscous coupling)

And to Jenn -- part of the issue may be down to the way the 4x4 system works. Basically if one front wheel spins, it will engage 4x4 to add rear drive. But if both are turning at the same speed, the system doesn't really think its stuck. If you can (or could have) encouraged one wheel to spin slower than the other (eg by jamming something like a brick under it) the system should then detect the imbalance and make the rear drive engage. However, pressing the ELD button should force 4 wheel drive at slow speeds: did the yellow 'ELD and diff lock' symbol come on in the speedo, and the green LED on on the button? The green light shows 4x4 is forced, and the yellow flashes when the ELD system is operating (when it 'brakes' a wheel to stop it spinning) If the 4x4 system detects a fault when that button is pressed it will show a warning triangle in the dash and display '4x4 not available'. If the ELD system is faulty, then, when the button is pressed, the lettering 'ESC' will flash in the rev counter and a message will show 'ELD unavailable'
Thanks portland_bill thanked for this post
__________________
2018 Panda 4x4 MJ :: North Herts :: Remember, if you find a post helpful, press the smiley face 'thanks' button below

Last edited by Herts Hillhopper; 13-03-2018 at 01:26.
Herts Hillhopper is online now Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 13-03-2018   #5
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 3
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: panda 4x4 not working

Thank you everyone for your replies, i have taken the car back to the garage i bought it from today for them to have a look at. To cut a long story short they couldn't find out what was wrong with it so they have booked it into a Fiat specialist garage for me next week. The car has a three month warranty, so i won't have to pay for getting it sorted out. Its rather disappointing just having bought this car, but its better finding out about this now rather than later when the warranty has run out. Apart from this hiccup i love this little car, its only 2014 and the first time i have been able to afford one at this age.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Jenn is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 13-03-2018   #6
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Faringdon, Oxfordshire UK
Posts: 5,588
Thanks: 439
Trader Rating: 1
portland_bill has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: panda 4x4 not working

When it is diagnosed, ask them to explain in detail the fault and its cure. Useful on here in years to come, and if it fails again later.
__________________
13 years motor trade, 16 years motor industry. 14 years Driving Instructor & 7 years Fleet Trainer
Panda Alessi
portland_bill is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 13-03-2018   #7
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,998
Thanks: 254
Trader Rating: 0
Goudrons has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: panda 4x4 not working

There have been a few reports of the electro pneumatic valve failing.
It's by no means common, but it can happen.

This valve controls the coupling, thus the power delivery to the rear axle.
Though I would have suspected a dashboard full of warning lights and messages.

Hopefully it should get sorted fairly quick and painlessly.
Hang in there, as when it all works, it's brilliant!
Likes Jenn liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Goudrons is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 14-03-2018   #8
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Devon and Umbria
Posts: 2,005
Thanks: 196
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: panda 4x4 not working

Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post
There have been a few reports of the electro pneumatic valve failing.
It's by no means common, but it can happen.

This valve controls the coupling, thus the power delivery to the rear axle.
Though I would have suspected a dashboard full of warning lights and messages.

Hopefully it should get sorted fairly quick and painlessly.
Hang in there, as when it all works, it's brilliant!
Don't you get a message like ELD not available or something like that - in fact shouldn't there be a diagnostic message on start up?
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

babbo_umbro is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 14-03-2018   #9
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: North Herts
Posts: 1,819
Thanks: 243
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: panda 4x4 not working

Quote Originally Posted by babbo_umbro View Post
Don't you get a message like ELD not available or something like that - in fact shouldn't there be a diagnostic message on start up?
See my earlier reply...
"If the 4x4 system detects a fault when that button is pressed it will show a warning triangle in the dash and display '4x4 not available'. If the ELD system is faulty, then, when the button is pressed, the lettering 'ESC' will flash in the rev counter and a message will show 'ELD unavailable'"
__________________
2018 Panda 4x4 MJ :: North Herts :: Remember, if you find a post helpful, press the smiley face 'thanks' button below
Herts Hillhopper is online now Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 14-03-2018   #10
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,998
Thanks: 254
Trader Rating: 0
Goudrons has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: panda 4x4 not working

Yes I would presume so, but the OP obviously isn't that familiar with the car yet, it could be complaining and they just haven't realised it.

There are plenty out there tootling about with warning lights on.
How often do you see cars with rear fogs on in broad daylight!
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Goudrons is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 14-03-2018   #11
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,789
Thanks: 94
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: panda 4x4 not working

Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post
How often do you see cars with rear fogs on in broad daylight?
Less often than cars with no lights on at all in thick fog or well beyond twilight and even less often that diesel cars parked up with the engine running for minutes on end...
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

AB100 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 22-03-2018   #12
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Mid Wales
Posts: 9
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
JerryR has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: panda 4x4 not working

Quote Originally Posted by portland_bill View Post
Is the prop shaft there?
The centre bearing of the prop wears. From Fiat, you have to have a full prop, over 1000, but aftermarket centre bearings are available, so a repair is not difficult. There have been many owners found that the prop has been removed, to prevent the vibration from a dead centre bearing.

On the front of the diff is a viscous coupling. These can wear out. There's a recent thread about this, and a good result from a company that refurbished one. So no worries there either.

The seller might appreciate this info.
Portland-Bill you have maybe helped me in identifying the vibration felt throughout my 4x4 MJ, that being the central prop shaft bearing.
It was present sometimes from when I bought the car but as the Bridport Fiat supplying Dealer was insistent that we returned the car to them under warranty, not what the salesman told us, he said that we could use a local Fiat Dealer and it being a 150 miles round trip I’ve put up with this.
I’ll get my local very helpful Ford Dealer to check it out.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

JerryR is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 27-03-2018   #13
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 3
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Post Re: panda 4x4 not working

Finally got things sorted out, i am not very mechanically minded but i did ask what the trouble had been with the 4x4 system not working.
I have been told it was an electrical fault with the ICU or is it ECU? going to the gear box, apparently it didn't take a lot of fixing.
The garage i bought the car from sent it to a Fiat garage Stoneacre at Chesterfield and got it sorted for me. Just want some more snow now to test it out!
Likes varesecrazy liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Jenn is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 28-03-2018   #14
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 951
Thanks: 34
Trader Rating: 1
The Panda Nut has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: panda 4x4 not working

its def not working. normally it would do its thing seamlessly. I wiill leave it to the experts to explain how it works. there are some reallybgood posts on this on here somewhere. Eld is really only a benefit in the most extreme conditions off road. good luck with getting satisfaction. I can confirm that when working these things will go nearly anywhere.
Likes varesecrazy liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

The Panda Nut is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 28-03-2018   #15
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,998
Thanks: 254
Trader Rating: 0
Goudrons has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: panda 4x4 not working

I suspect there was a wiring connection issue to the electro pneumatic valve.

There have been reports of problems, I think water gets into the connector.

Some have been fine after a clean and a fiddle, others have needed replacement as they failed again soon after.


I wrote this a while ago and it hopefully explains the differences between the old, viscous system and the newer, electro pneumatic valve system.

Both systems front to rear torque systems perform similarly, though one is mechanical and the other electrically controlled.

The old viscous coupling on the 169 "Climbing" model is basically two shafts joined together by plates in a tube filled with thick fluid.

Every second plate is locked into one shaft, the others in between are locked into the other shaft. (very similar to a motorbikes wet clutch).

With no pressure on the plates, they slip past one another and no torque transmits from one shaft to the other.

When it all starts slipping the thick fluid heats and expands to drag on the plates, thus sending torque through it.
The more slip, the more drag on the plates, the more torque.
It's totally automatic and self regulating.


The later models with the electric system uses a power transfer unit on the back of the gearbox, similar to the viscous system but with an electro pneumatic actuator on the rear diff instead of a viscous coupling to engage and transmit power to the rear axle.

This valve uses small electric currents to vary the valves position thus controlling variable power to the rear axle as needed.

The valve is not just a on or off switch, but will vary depending on the differing levels of torque between the prop shaft and the diff.
It will transmit up to 50% of torque to the rear when needed.

Now where the two systems differ is with this electro pneumatic valve system, it's easier to over ride and pre lock the torque 50/50 than it is to pre lock a viscous coupling, it's just a matter of signalling this valve.

To pre lock a viscous coupling, there needs to be some way of altering the state of the fluid in the system (with a pump) or some other way of locking the two shafts together.

I believe due to weight/cost/reliability Fiat did not include a front to back lock on the old viscous system.

This pre locking is part, but not all of what the ELD system

So both can alter power between front and rear axles, though only the later electronic system can pre lock the front to back transfer of torque.

Due to the other systems fitted to the later models, like the stability control (ESC) and ABS, they can also "lock" the diffs side to side, though it's not a true lock, just the effects are similar.

Under normal conditions, if one wheel on a powered axle spins due to lack of grip, the open diff will transmit all the power on that axle through the path of least resistance, ie to the spinning wheel. The other wheel on that axle, even through it might have traction, doesn't receive any power and sits there idle.

By using the ESC it can detect a slipping wheel and using the ESC & ABS systems it can grab the brake for that wheel, thus sending the torque to the other wheel which otherwise would be left unpowered, so now this other wheel has a chance at gripping and moving you.

The ELD is speed limited, as what works for low traction situations doesn't for higher speed cornering.

So by pressing the ELD button you pre lock the power to the back axle with 50% of power and alter the ESC system, already to grab the brakes on slipping wheels making it more more capable, grip wise, than it otherwise would be.

The ELD a bit of a step up from the viscous coupling, as unlike the pre lock, electro pneumatic valve system, the viscous's front to back torque is a reaction to low grip, so you are already loosing it before it actually operates fully.

Though the side to side "lock" using the brakes is a reaction system rather than a pre locking system, the old system had nothing similar.
Thanks Torsten S, jrkitching, The Panda Nut thanked for this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Goudrons is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Reply
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
(T) 13reg Panda 4x4 twinair ABS not working plonkers Panda (2012+) 24 24-12-2014 12:43
(G) Hello Panda Cross 4x4, goodbye dual fuel Panda 4x4 trevorwat Panda 1 16-03-2013 16:42
(T) Difference between Panda 4x4 and Panda 4x4 Climbing? hollister Panda 22 31-05-2012 21:47
(G) panda 4X4 PISTE NOIR my dream panda 4X4 panda valdisere Panda (Classic) 10 31-03-2008 21:50