Technical Does my ELD Button Do Anything??

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Technical Does my ELD Button Do Anything??

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and you should not make tight turns on grippy surfaces with the ELD turned on. (Try it and you'll hear the tyres protest). Note also that with ELD on, ESP is off.

I need a favour folks if possible please? As I hinted at in a previous post this week, my 4x4 DOESN'T seem to lock the electronic diff 100% when the ELD button is on. I have decent sized gravel driveway with plenty of turning space and I am absolutely certain that the car never locks that diff if I press the button. We have 2 other cars with LSD's in the rear axle and even on that 'limited' basis, I can easily identify the partial-locking characteristics when moving around on the driveway. But not on my Panda.

Whilst I completely understand how my car works, I am suspicious that I may have a problem with my diff and it would be great if others could confirm the behaviour of their car on such slippery surfaces. As per HH's post as quoted (from the TuV Thread as it happens), the book suggests that over-riding the automated nature of the diff using ELD button should lock it 100% - might sure as hell doesn't.

Would someone be so kind as to try this in their car and report back please?
 
I've used it in muddy fields and wet grass and to be honest it's hard to tell it's working most of the time.

The ELD is not a physical locking system but uses the braking/ABS system to grab a slipping wheel in much the same way the stability system does when it detects one wheel spinning faster than the others when you've fecked up a corner!
But it ramps up the response so it acts sooner, albeit at a much lower speed.

By grabbing and braking this slipping wheel it sends torque to the other wheel on that axle and keeps it powered.
Without this the slipping wheel would cause the other wheel on that axle to stop powering due to the open diffs response to the slipping wheel.
(you might have noticed a two wheel drive car losing grip, one wheel starts to spin and due to the one diff, the other stops moving altogether)

It also uses the same system between front and rear axles, so it grabs slipping wheels side to side, but also grabs both on that axle if it detects one axles wheels moving faster than the other.

With a old Landrover even with front and rear diffs locked it's possible to cross axle, that is unloading one front and one rear wheel causing the other two wheels to diff slip and you grind to a halt, but brake one or both unloaded wheels and the diff will send power to the other wheels on that axle and if they still have grip, it'll keep you moving.

So unless you are on a very uneven surface with one wheel/axle slipping more than the other/s, you don't tend to feel it's effects as it's still got normal open diffs.

When you do feel it, it's kind of an odd nipping of the wheels and a funny sensation in regards to throttle input/actual wheel response, you're clogging the pedel but the some wheels and brakes are doing their own thing.
 
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Labelling that button 'ELD' is misleading, as it does two other things as well (and first!)

Yes, when 'on', it allows the car to choose to use the ELD function, applying the brakes as needed to simulate a diff lock effect - but it will only do this if it detects a spinning wheel (so Goudrons is correct - it doesn't actually lock anything when you press it)

But crucially, pressing it also forces the car to be four wheel drive by locking the car into full 4x4 mode (without the button pressed the car is mostly front drive unless loss of front traction is detected, when the rear drive 'clutch' is automatically engaged). This 'forcing' of 4x4 is what can cause 'wind up' at full lock, as there is no central diff to allow front and rear wheels to turn at different speeds when the car is turning a corner. It is the front-to-rear wind up that causes the 'heavy' steering and the sensation that the car is being 'tensed'. (This is why the locked 4x4 is automatically disengaged over 30mph). The flinging of gravel that Ringa expects is evidence of this 'wind-up' being released - so, yes, he should see gravel being flung if turning tightly enough - the effect is more obvious the slower you go)

The third thing it does is turn off the ASR part of the stability system.

In the 4x4 handbook supplement, it lists the effect of pressing the button in the order
(1) forced 4x4
(2) disabling ASR and
(3) allowing ELD to operate

So really the button should be labelled 'select 4x4 manually and allow ELD to operate if needed' (which is sort of what it implies on the Cross' rotary control showing 'off road') - that wouldn't all fit on the button!
 
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So are you saying the car becomes 2wd only over 30mph?
I know the eld (braking of slipping wheels part) is turned off over 30mph or is it 30kmh? That is to preserve the brakes.

I didn't know that the centre diff lock (clutch) was disengaged too.
 
So are you saying the car becomes 2wd only over 30mph?
I know the eld (braking of slipping wheels part) is turned off over 30mph or is it 30kmh? That is to preserve the brakes.

I didn't know that the centre diff lock (clutch) was disengaged too.

No...

There is no centre diff or centre diff lock - at the back end of the propshaft is a clutch that engages with the rear diff to give 4 wheel drive, and a differential at the front (contained within the grearbox) . That clutch will engage 'when it needs to' at any speed, and is forced to engage (selecting permanent 4x4 mode) when ELD button pressed and speed is below 30.

So, no, 4x4 is 'still available' over 30, but only if the front wheels are slipping enough compared to the rears. The reality is that it is unlikely that 4x4 will kick in much over that speed anyway. So long as the switch is still on (green light showing), forced 4x4 will re-engage as speed drops back below 30 - and yes, it is 30mph - again, that little handbook supplement says 50km/h
 
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Great, that clears that up then.

I wonder at what point once traction is lost and power is sent to the rear, does the clutch (in replacement of a centre diff) release and power is only transmitted to the front after both front and rear axles are running the same speed?

Is it immediately? 10 seconds?
Do we need the front wheels to be constantly spinning on and off to maintain rear drive?
All of this over 30mph or with eld button off.
 
That's a good question and it's not that easy to answer.

It always sends some power rearwards, it's been written around 2% always goes backwards when under normal operating conditions, so these are true 4 wheels drives.

Now somehow as demand for torque to the rear increase, it starts to increase the power it transmits to the rear until it max's out at 50/50 (or very near)

How it does this I'm not quite sure as I've never taken one apart.
I believe there are different ways to do this but the usual way is a slipping centre clutch (a viscous coupling), as it slips more, it heats up the plates within and they grip, the more is slips, the hotter it gets, the more it grips, thus transmitting more and more power rearwards.
It's kind of like a wet motorbike clutch, many plates jammed together in oil, but instead of it all slipping it the oil, the hot oil actually causes it all to grip together.

Manufacturers tend to load these couplings up with springs, then it's just a matter of activating the spring to put the plates under more tension and it'll cause them to lock up and all grip together faster.

I'm probably going to get shot down and be told this isn't Fiats way, but it's how VW/Audi solved the issue with certain 4x4 models and they bought theirs from Haldex and these systems, whoever makes them tend to be referred to as Haldex clutches or couplers.

The beauty of it is it's all automatic and pretty much maintenance free.
You just put your foot down and it shoves the power where it's needed.
 
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I'm probably going to get shot down and be told this isn't Fiats way, but it's how VW/Audi solved the issue with certain 4x4 models and they bought theirs from Haldex and these systems, whoever makes them tend to be referred to as Haldex clutches or couplers.
No shooting here! The previous Panda 4x4 (2005 onward to about 2010) used a viscous coupling.

The last of the old Pandas and all the previous Cross model, along with all the current 4x4 Panda (Cross included) use something akin to the Haldex system (don't think its made by them). This allows varying degrees of 4x4 engagement depending on info the electronics receives from the car's wheel speed sensors. Unlikely to end up with 50/50 drive for long as it will disengage itself again.

However, pressing the ELD/Force4x4 button fixes the connection at full 50/50 4x4 (if doing under 30mph). Then, but only if cornering in the same direction for long enough, wind-up can occur. But, since you've chosen to engage 4x4, you know you are on something slippery - so it the wind-up will release anyway.

Simple message here: Don't press the ELD/4x4 Button (or on the Cross don't select the 'offroad' mode) if you are on dry tarmac That will be 'a bad thing'.
 
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Edit: And Herts Hillhopper jumps in to the rescue. I'll keep the text below as a simple explainer for mechanical viscous couplings and Haldex electronically controlled viscous couplings, but the information may not actually pertain to the system available in the Panda 4x4.

From what I understand, the Fiat system is an electronically controlled viscous coupling "center" differential. Basically, the gearbox output shaft is attached to an "open" differential at the front axle, along with the driveshaft running down the centerline of the underside of the car into a viscous coupling housed between the two rear wheels. The final drive from the gearbox is therefore always spinning the driveshaft, and if all the wheels are rotating at the same speed, the clutch plates in the viscous coupling are also rotating at the same speed. That means the fluid between the clutch plates in that coupling is at a "viscous" temperature and it retains fluidity.

The actual method of providing drive, however, occurs on two fronts. The first is when the wheel speeds of the two axles differ. Under normal driving conditions, that 2% quoted power to the rear is most likely a result of the driveshaft providing a small amount of input torque to the viscous coupling. When, however, the front wheels slip, this creates a speed difference between the speed of the front axles and driveshaft, and the output shaft of the viscous coupling (and therefore a speed difference between the clutch plates). Unlike regular clutch plates, these plates have holes in them to allow the fluid to run through all of them. When, however, the plates start turning at different speeds, this creates friction in both the fluid and between the plates. The whole point of the viscous fluid in the system is that it loses fluidity as temperature increases. Basically it's the exact opposite of how cooling water to make ice works. Imagine an absurd universe in which the more you heat water, the harder it gets, going through phases such as "fluid", "pudding", "cake dough", cookie dough", "hard biscuit dough", "inedible rock". As the heat builds, the viscous fluid loses viscosity becoming harder, and since it runs through all the clutch plates, it starts forcing them to turn at the same speed. Eventually, if it heats up enough, it will become essentially solid, forcing the front and rear axles to turn at the same speed. How fast all this happens depends on the design of the viscous coupling, along with the properties of the fluid used (such as how fast it hardens under how much heat, how fluid it is to begin with etc).

At the rear axle, from what I can tell, there is another open differential after the viscous coupling that splits whatever power that makes it through the coupling between the two rear wheels.

The above explanation is the mechanical aspect of it, but there's also the second portion of the system: the electronics.

Different sources provide different explanations on the electronics of the Panda 4x4 system, with the most important variation existing on an explanation of the ELD system. As such, the explanation below is my best approximation based on the information available.

In addition to the mechanical method of splitting torque between the front and rear axles, as with most modern cars, the Panda 4x4 has ABS and all the associated electronic sensors. As such, it utilizes the wheel speed sensors of the ABS system to sense when one or more wheels aren't rotating at the speed they should be. Modern electronic stability systems use this information to keep the car "stable" during driving, by using the brakes to slow down certain wheels in an attempt to prevent the vehicle from rotating beyond the limits of grip. As such, when wheel speed sensor information indicates that the car is spinning, it would brake one of the outside wheels in an attempt to straighten the car.

How does this all relate to the 4x4 ELD? Well, a few sources say that it doesn't, and rather pushing the ELD button "preloads" the viscous coupling, allowing faster transfer of power to the rear when the fronts slip. More sources, however, along with anecdotal evidence (and the fact that while there are methods for such implementations in viscous couplings, the Panda isn't quite expensive enough to be one of them) state that the ELD system is basically just using the ABS wheel speed sensors to determine which wheels are moving faster than they should, and braking them. This makes sense, as the way open differentials work is that they send torque through the path of least resistance. As such, the ELD, using wheel speed information, simply applies the brakes to any wheel that's spinning faster than the others. This process essentially forces the open differential to transfer torque to the wheel not being braked, and naturally that wheel (or those wheels) are the ones with more grip. Basically, ELD uses the brakes to make sure that all the wheels spin at the same speed all the time. The fact that brakes are used to ensure the transfer of torque to the wheel with grip is also probably why it won't work above 50kph, as constant brake inputs at those speeds would probably ruin the pads and discs. This is also probably why enabling the ELD disables the ESP.

Lastly, there's the matter of the possibility that the viscous coupling uses a hydraulic pump and fluid pressures like a Haldex system. Basically, the way Haldex viscous couplings work is that they have the same clutch plates swimming in an oil, but there's also an oil pump to increase the oil pressure on the fly. When the front wheels start to slip (this is for Haldex generations 4 and below, 5 was rear biased, or maybe it was 5 and below and 6 was rear biased. I forget.) the ABS wheel speed sensors transmit this information to the fluid pump actuator, which increases the fluid pressure, forcing the clutch plates together and the fluid to lose viscosity, which then transfers torque. This is more of an electronic solution than a mechanical one, as Haldex systems with broken actuators, pumps, relays etc. won't transfer much torque even if the axles are turned at very different speeds. It relies on that wheel speed information to react to wheel slip, and only then does it do something about it. The thing is, the reaction time for Haldex systems and those of regular viscous couplings (the time it takes for the fluid to harden under heat of friction) are quite similar. As such, like Goudrons stated, I don't have a way of knowing if the one in our 4x4s are a proprietary reactive (electronically controlled) system like a Haldex system, or if they're a fully mechanical viscous coupling.
 
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Yeah that ^.

Here's an image of a viscous coupling.
http://www.awdwiki.com/images/volkswagen-syncro-viscous-coupling.jpg

If you look carefully, the plates aren't all the same.
Some engage the shaft down the middle and not the outer casing.
And others spin freely on the shaft but engage the outer casing.

Without any tension the shaft and case will spin freely from each other and transmit no power (apart from a little drag).

Jam the plates together and it effectively all locks up and the shaft and outer casing will turn as one.
 
Oh man, that looks like the viscous coupling used in the VW T3 Syncro. The slotted input shaft discs had a tendency to bend their vanes, essentially locking the adjacent clutches. Add the fact that they were connected to the splines on the input shaft, and there was a hydraulically assisted pressure plate to move the whole shaft into the locked position that would then get stuck there, and it you'd end up with a fantastically locked center differential that was a real pain to unlock. While it's amazingly sturdy when in use, getting it in and out of use (and then getting stuck with it locked) is probably what drove many to swap out the Syncro bits (axles, driveshaft etc.) for the stock Borg-Warner gearbox and convert them to the standard rear wheel drive T3.

Edit: the one in the image you posted is a later 4motion system, while I was thinking it was the old Ferguson system, which had the splined output shaft to the driveshaft going forward and rather than a rotating casing, another non-splined input shaft coming from the gearbox.
 
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As I said, the 2005-2010 Panda used a viscous coupling - relying on the viscous fluid to become 'thick' if slip occurred at the so binding the plates (in Gourdons diagram) together.

But since 2010, and on the current model, there is an electronically controlled solenoid valve that engages the rear drive (by varying degrees). The two drawings below show, on the left, the very simple 2005 rear diff with viscous unit coloured yellow, and on the right, the more complex 2012 version with the solenoid coloured red. (from here: http://en.autospares.lv/fiat-genuine-parts-catalogue-eper.html)

With a purely viscous joint, you couldn't have stability control, specifically ASR (anti slip regulation) as you needed slip to make the drive connect. The new model balances slip vs loss of traction through clever electronics, and decides whether to reduce the power (ASR) or engage the rear drive depending on what it thinks is going on.

Anyway, as said above -- its very clever, automatic, and best left to make its own decisions. Don't press ELD unless you are really sure you need to.

Last from me on this... now just waiting for snow!!
 

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Some wonderfully detailed descriptions here of how the various systems work. I always recall a friend who worked at Porsche explaining viscous couplings in the most simple, elegant way, involving a mixing bowl, wooden spoon and cake mix and likening what happens as you hold/release the bowl (output) and turn the spoon (input) - it was a brilliant analogy!

The system appears to be quite a smart one and as a result of the electronic approach to locking, to a degree is more able to protect the key mechanical components as a result. The braking and release of individual wheels, as explained by others here, is why such a mechanically simple system can produce strong off-road performance. To my understanding, it's also how the Cross is able to offer 'descent control' with no real mechanical differences - it's just an adapted braking algorithm to control speed by braking those wheels with most grip. It's also how Traction+ works on the Trekking (just the same system minus the rear output and gubbins!).

It's clever enough that I don't think we need to worry about it too much - I've simply told the wife that, if she gets stuck (or cars around her are really struggling, say up a particularly snowy hill) press the ELD button, then turn it off once out of trouble - should be enough guidance for our needs!
 
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The system appears to be quite a smart one and as a result of the electronic approach to locking, to a degree is more able to protect the key mechanical components as a result.

I tend to think any pre activation of the VC overcomes it's main limitation, that is you need to loose traction with the current driven wheels for it to start working and shunting power to the other axle.

It's a bit like bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted!

There's been a few attempts to overcome this, preloading with springs, altering the amount of fluid in there with a mechanical pumps or, as we now know Fiat now do, use an electronic solenoid.

Whichever way is used, it's far cheaper, (both in parts and fuel/power consumption) it's lighter and more user friendly than a transfer box.

It also seems to be more reliable, but that might be just my perspective, I've never had to replace one, but I've done a few transfer boxes!
 
Thanks all for such detailed replies and apologies for starting off another round of chat about how our 4WD systems work...!

Not much more to add to the discussion on the design side other than to say that the reason that the Viscous Coupling was phased out was due to the introduction of Stability Control on Pandas and the need to be able to fully control each wheel individually, which would not be possible with a passively (and therefore on-demand by the laws of physics and not solely by electronic 'decision') locking diff. The electronics in our cars are clearly very complex yet effective, and which allows a Panda 4x4 go places that few offroaders will ever get in the snow. In truth of course, that exceptional performance is all that really matters.....

So in terms of my actual question - should I expect a 100% locked centre coupling when I press ELD - the answer is No, it won't do that in absolute terms (as of course was the case with the Mk1/2 Steyr-Puch 4x4's with the pull-up umbrella handle), but the system will be additionally primed and ready to jump on any obvious loss of grip and wasted torque through a spinning wheel. And it would suggest that simply turning round on full lock on gravel isn't really enough to identify this heightened state of 4x4-ness via tyre scrub, which is probably understandable given the relatively short wheelbase of the Panda and all.

On a final note, this is the sort of conversion I'd have done to my previous 169-model Panda, in that it replaces the viscous coupling and re-introduces a centre-tunnel mounted manual 4x4 100% centre lock handle to force both axles to lock together. Again from those wonderful Prometeo folk, from whom I've ordered the suspension lift kit and spacers... (y)

http://www.prometeomeccanica.it/panda_giunto.html
 
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