Hey, strayed a little close to personal remarks here but am enjoying this debate! A new Panda vs an old estate BMW is not a great comparison, they cost much the same but fit different needs, all pragmatic, none too flashy, each owner happy. It gets more interesting to compare an Audi Q7 with a Bentley Bentayga. Bentley are a coach works dressing one into the other. One is a gratuitously expensive 4x4, the other is simply a way to demonstrate great wealth. Neither are practical or pragmatic purchases and customers of those cars are simply not worried about diminished return on investment of an engineering or financial kind.

If, like me, you're wary of buying more upmarket used cars (because when they need fixing it's often expensive) then small and cheap (and cheerful) fits the bill. Having been in more expensive cars if I could stretch to one I'd get a Giulia Veloce. Love the leather interiors on my father's Maserati or brother's X5 Sport but there's no way I would even be able to keep up with replacing the tyres on those things let alone servicing, insurance, fuel etc. It's not a valid comparison for that very reason.

Thirty years ago I drove a Panda because it was all I could afford. Now I drive one because I like the size and practicality/simplicity (I'd rather it be smaller/lighter to be honest). Cost would be of no consequence whatsoever but I am always happy for people to assume that is the case.

I've been in enough 'nicer' cars - always liked the original Lexus LXS400 and I've yet to see anything come close to the Facel Vega. But large/new cars just do nothing for me. A bit like the interest rate on my savings.......

So, I do get cars. Just not necessarily the same as someone else might get them.

The big question is, who's going to throw FIAT a nice big EV bone and help them out. My money is in Renminbi or Ringgit.

JCarp16 said:

If, like me, you're wary of buying more upmarket used cars (because when they need fixing it's often expensive) then small and cheap (and cheerful) fits the bill. Having been in more expensive cars if I could stretch to one I'd get a Giulia Veloce. Love the leather interiors on my father's Maserati or brother's X5 Sport but there's no way I would even be able to keep up with replacing the tyres on those things let alone servicing, insurance, fuel etc. It's not a valid comparison for that very reason.

Click to expand...

A service on my BMW is £149 and the tyres are less than £100 each and they seem to be lasting rather a long time. Insurance is £100 more than a 500 and it 20mpg more than the 500.

Apparently the New Panda/500 will arrive in Q3 2020.

The Pretender said:

Apparently the New Panda/500 will arrive in Q3 2020.

Click to expand...

Just in time for me to graduate and perhaps indulge in a new one [emoji6]

306maxi said:

Lamborghini, Porsche, Bentley, Bugatti...

Click to expand...

Granted, Lambos still look ok, but how much input do audi have at Lamborghini?

When was the last time Porsche made a characterful car?!

Bentleys don't have character, they're just fat, vulgar lumps for people with huge bank accounts!

Bugattis are just plain pointless tbh.

306maxi said:

A service on my BMW is £149 and the tyres are less than £100 each and they seem to be lasting rather a long time. Insurance is £100 more than a 500 and it 20mpg more than the 500.

Click to expand...

20mpg better if you're happy to drive a diesel (or, indeed, do sufficient miles per annum). Even if I thought I could get 75mpg out of a diesel to get that kind of margin over my current car I wouldn't buy one - it would still cost me more in the long run.
If you can get a main service on a BMW for that price in the UK and still be sure they're doing it to BMW standards then the chances are you can get a 500 serviced even more cheaply.

puntofan01 said:

Granted, Lambos still look ok, but how much input do audi have at Lamborghini?

When was the last time Porsche made a characterful car?!

Bentleys don't have character, they're just fat, vulgar lumps for people with huge bank accounts!

Bugattis are just plain pointless tbh.

Click to expand...

The V10 is an Audi engine. A lot of engineering takes place at St. Agata to ensure the brand maintains its uniqueness. The V12 is a Lamborghini unit - but a new one that involved a collaboration between engineers from Ingolstadt and St. Agata. I guess if you're in the market for a Lambo and you wanted the purest Lambo experience then an Aventador would be one to go for rather than the Huracan which has a lot more Audi DNA.

JCarp16 said:

20mpg better if you're happy to drive a diesel (or, indeed, do sufficient miles per annum). Even if I thought I could get 75mpg out of a diesel to get that kind of margin over my current car I wouldn't buy one - it would still cost me more in the long run.
If you can get a main service on a BMW for that price in the UK and still be sure they're doing it to BMW standards then the chances are you can get a 500 serviced even more cheaply.

Click to expand...

Yes diesels cost far more to repair and with complex turbo systems that are prone to getting suited up like VAGs it won’t be as easy to get to £200,000 without courtly dodgy mechanic work that most people won’t pay.

Doubt BMW will service any of their cars for £149 (maybe older cars cost less to service?). But yes I’ve asked before where 306 gets such prices and got ignored. My guess is that it’s not a main dealer. But of course a 500 will cost less in ANY situation to service!

A Fiat filter is £6 on eBay and Castrol for my Panda is around £23 for 4L’s. can’t beat that on many cars these days. Definitely not on a BMW. we’re talking genuine parts here!

puntofan01 said:

Bentleys don't have character, they're just fat, vulgar lumps for people with huge bank accounts

Click to expand...

While I'm not a fan of Bentley - their interiors have to be seen to be believed. Vulgarity or opulence? It's a matter of opinion I suppose. They sell well to the market they are aimed at - we might not get it - but that doesn't mean they're irrelevant.

Someone in my village has got a continental GT, and the interior looks like a cliché British luxury car. An executive saloon can be relatively opulent, but a bentley crosses that line. Give me an Aston any day, lol!

SB1500 said:

Yes diesels cost far more to repair and with complex turbo systems that are prone to getting suited up like VAGs it won’t be as easy to get to £200,000 without courtly dodgy mechanic work that most people won’t pay.

Doubt BMW will service any of their cars for £149 (maybe older cars cost less to service?). But yes I’ve asked before where 306 gets such prices and got ignored. My guess is that it’s not a main dealer. But of course a 500 will cost less in ANY situation to service!

A Fiat filter is £6 on eBay and Castrol for my Panda is around £23 for 4L’s. can’t beat that on many cars these days. Definitely not on a BMW. we’re talking genuine parts here!

Click to expand...

Nope! BMW have fixed price servicing. A current 320d will cost you £149 to service at a main dealer, even less at a specialist! A 1.2 500 will cost more to service at a dealer. I’m sure I could do it myself cheaper, as I do on my 500, but it’s nice to have a full dealer service history just in case I do sell it.

If you don’t believe me, go on autotrader and get the reg for a 320d and put it in the BMW service site et voila, £149 for a minor service. They want silly money for brakes and stuff, but you can do that a lot cheaper.

Mildly off-topic (and not trying to add fuel to either side of this debate)...
Took the Panda for MOT today (passed, clean sheet) and I noticed that one of the headlamp bulbss is starting to go a bit yellow... not even at the advisory stage yet, but it started a discussion. Was shocked to hear that a Merc had just failed it's first MOT on a (LED) headlight, and the replacement was apparently over £1200 + VAT.
That's just mad.
I do hope Fiat stick with old-school bulbs for the next Panda.

puntofan01 said:

Granted, Lambos still look ok, but how much input do audi have at Lamborghini?

When was the last time Porsche made a characterful car?!

Bentleys don't have character, they're just fat, vulgar lumps for people with huge bank accounts!

Bugattis are just plain pointless tbh.

Click to expand...

You’ve just slagged off a lot of cars that you’ve never sat in let alone driven. I’ve sat in a Veyron seat (the seat wasn’t in a Veyron sadly!) and the attention to detail was simply gorgeous. Granted I’d rather have a McLaren F1, but they have their place.

The new Continental GT is by all accounts a pretty different beast to the old one.

[ame]https://youtu.be/-XQhy2khDLo[/ame]

All the media coverage has sad that the DB11 should be afraid. The Continental GT is no longer built on a fuddy duddy Phaeton platform, but is based on a Panamera.

As for Porsche not making characterful cars, I mean seriously wtf?

As for the person who didn’t think Audi had any input into Lamborghini... hmmmm

irc said:

Mildly off-topic (and not trying to add fuel to either side of this debate)...
Took the Panda for MOT today (passed, clean sheet) and I noticed that one of the headlamp bulbss is starting to go a bit yellow... not even at the advisory stage yet, but it started a discussion. Was shocked to hear that a Merc had just failed it's first MOT on a (LED) headlight, and the replacement was apparently over £1200 + VAT.
That's just mad.
I do hope Fiat stick with old-school bulbs for the next Panda.

Click to expand...

LEDs should last the life of the car tbh. There will always be the odd one that doesn’t, but that’s the exception rather than the rule. I think the days of halogen lighting in all but the most budget models is coming to an end.

I saw this headline today. It's funny how we all sometimes see and read things differently:


Rush to fix 'serious' computer chip flaws

That new continental is just as hideous and in your face as the last 1 was tbh.

Porsches don't have character, they're just designed to go as fast as possible for a certain price, and their styling is either dull or hideous, depending on the car.

And I never said that audi had no input at Lamborghini, I merely meant that Lambos aren't designed by audi themselves.

puntofan01 said:

That new continental is just as hideous and in your face as the last 1 was tbh.

Porsches don't have character, they're just designed to go as fast as possible for a certain price, and their styling is either dull or hideous, depending on the car.

And I never said that audi had no input at Lamborghini, I merely meant that Lambos aren't designed by audi themselves.

Click to expand...

Have you ever driven a manual Cayman S?

Nope.