Bravo <as yet unnamed>, our 120hp Tjet Bravo

Candisa · Apr 2, 2017

Nice car!
I have the 120hp T-Jet as well in my Doblo and I've driven the Bravo 150 of a friend of mine: I agree with you about the 120hp being nicer to drive, and I haven't even owned a diesel car for quite some years.

The difference is not only the turbo, but also the camshafts: the 150hp is more tuned towards power in the higher rev range at cost of torque down low, the 120hp has great pick up in daily traffic but drops at about 4.5k rpm.

I don't know if the Bravo is like that too, but my Doblo seems to be limited (less torque) in lower gears, if I could unleash its full potential in 2nd and 3rd I bet the T-Jet 120 isn't even that much slower off the line than the 150.

I'm now working with Fiat to get rid of that limitation, if that isn't succesful I'll contact a chiptuning company.
If you're interested: I've made a thread about it I'll keep updated, check out the list of threads I've started in my user profile (something with "boost by gear") to find it and subscribe to it.
You'll also find my "Members Motors" thread to see what I'm doing with my Doblo.

Greetings from Belgium,
Isabelle

Matthen · Apr 2, 2017

Candisa said:
Nice car!

I don't know if the Bravo is like that too, but my Doblo seems to be limited (less torque) in lower gears, if I could unleash its full potential in 2nd and 3rd I bet the T-Jet 120 isn't even that much slower off the line than the 150

Greetings from Belgium,
Isabelle

They may be similar for the first half second after the light goes green, but the 120 has 20% less power than the 150 - it will be behind before either car is out of first gear

. (Software limitations aside)

Congrats on your purchase Cadabena, your car looks very tidy! I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoy mine. (Although with an average speed of 13 mph over the last 65 miles, I am not really enjoying it that much

)

Candisa · Apr 2, 2017

I wouldn't be so sure about that...
Numbers only tell the story of the specific conditions they're measured in.

Unless racing uphill with a lot of weight in the car, first gear doesn't really load the engine all that much as soon as you're moving. This means less pressure on the exhaust gasses compared to higher gears, which results in less boost.
The smaller turbo of the 120hp version is actually very likely to be more efficient in 1st and 2nd gear when unlimited, this is also the reason why staggered bi-turbo and variable geometry turbo setups exist.

The "120hp" has proven to be underrated (most likely for marketing reasons, they're pushing 130-135hp irl) measured on dynamometers, which are always done in a taller gear to provide a good load to the engine.
The 150hp in stock form only delivers its full potential in "overboost", which also doesn't come into action in lower gears.

While the 150hp will have the advantage of being able to draw out the revs a bit more, considering the above ánd my experience with a Bravo 150, I'm pretty sure an "unleashed" T-Jet 120 would keep up better and longer off the line than the brochure numbers would let one suspect.

Aren't the gear ratios a bit different too?

allan jenkins · Apr 2, 2017

Bravos are always top of my list.. well done on getting one.
But I have to disagree on the dynamic being better (flood gates are now open..lol)
As u can see by my pictures I have a 1.9 multyjet 150 sport and it is the ******.. full leather and all boys toys.. and the torque and power not to mention the comfort of the drive is way better than the 120 dynamic, hands down all day long.
How do I know.. I hear u say..?
It's because I also have a 120 dynamic that I bought for my wife (£30 a year tax ?)
But each to their own and just glad to see another bravo owner

Candisa · Apr 2, 2017

allan jenkins said:
...I have a 1.9 multyjet 150 sport and it is the ******.. full leather and all boys toys.. and the torque and power not to mention the comfort of the drive is way better than the 120 dynamic, hands down all day long.

The 1.9 diesel 150hp is a totally different animal than the 1.4 petrol 150hp.
The diesel has a clear low rev torque advantage + you don't need to rev it uncomfortably high to get peak power = a true overall improvement over the T-Jet 120 performance wise.
The petrol 150hp only delivers some extra power up top + laggier than the 120 down low = more nervous power delivery for subtle gains.

allan jenkins · Apr 3, 2017

Candisa said:
The 1.9 diesel 150hp is a totally different animal than the 1.4 petrol 150hp.
The diesel has a clear low rev torque advantage + you don't need to rev it uncomfortably high to get peak power = a true overall improvement over the T-Jet 120 performance wise.
The petrol 150hp only delivers some extra power up top + laggier than the 120 down low = more nervous power delivery for subtle gains.

My bad ?
I thought we were talking about the 150 diesel and I thought no way can you compare my multyjet beast to a dynamic... lol

Matthen · Apr 4, 2017

Candisa said:
I wouldn't be so sure about that...
Numbers only tell the story of the specific conditions they're measured in.

Unless racing uphill with a lot of weight in the car, first gear doesn't really load the engine all that much as soon as you're moving. This means less pressure on the exhaust gasses compared to higher gears, which results in less boost.
The smaller turbo of the 120hp version is actually very likely to be more efficient in 1st and 2nd gear when unlimited, this is also the reason why staggered bi-turbo and variable geometry turbo setups exist.

The "120hp" has proven to be underrated (most likely for marketing reasons, they're pushing 130-135hp irl) measured on dynamometers, which are always done in a taller gear to provide a good load to the engine.
The 150hp in stock form only delivers its full potential in "overboost", which also doesn't come into action in lower gears.

While the 150hp will have the advantage of being able to draw out the revs a bit more, considering the above ánd my experience with a Bravo 150, I'm pretty sure an "unleashed" T-Jet 120 would keep up better and longer off the line than the brochure numbers would let one suspect.

Aren't the gear ratios a bit different too?

I've no idea if the ratios are different! I know that in my car, first gear is very low ratio - Only used from a dead stop. I usually short shift immediately into 2nd.

Any potential torque advantage will be lost by the middle of the rev-range in second gear, there will be more than enough exhaust gasses under full throttle to spool the turbos in both cars up - Then the 120 will go backwards. Also, I don't believe the 150 Dynamics have over boost.

I agree that the earlier peak torque of the 120 will make it more relaxing to drive in traffic.

Has the car got a name yet OP?

1.8Stilo · Apr 4, 2017

Re: &amp;lt;as yet unnamed&amp;gt;, our 120hp Tjet Bravo

I also don't think the dynamics have the sport button, this is the CITY steering wheel control button in most bravo.

The 120 Tjet also uses a 5 speed fiat box, were as the 150Tjet uses the GM M32 gearbox. I personally short shift also to 2nd.

I find the vl36 turbo in my 150Tjet a joy to drive around town. Compared to my alfa mito 155hp which is the equivalent of abarth Grande punto had the vl37 that was a bit more all of nothing.

Having owned all three setups of the Tjet none really surfer any turbo lag due to the small engine capacity compared to larger 2ltr petrol turbo cars I have own.

It's a shame the Tjet unit is being faded out of production shortly as it is a peach and something special in the A595/A695.

Also OP good choice with your bravo, they are underated and great value for money.

I hope you enjoy it and get some good info from this section, it has always helped me with any problems! [emoji106]

Cadabena · Apr 5, 2017

Thanks all

still doesn't have a name, Mrs Cadabena has been driving it all week so I'm expecting she will christen is at some stage. The 120 Tjet does in fact have the 6 speed M32, it's the 120 Mjet that has the 5 speed. Having had to have the bearings replaced in my old 1.3 Punto I was particularly wary of this, however with the reduced torque and the fact it's such low mileage, I'm hoping I should be safe. I listened for the old 6th whine on the test drive and heard nothing. Also you're right about the Sport button being the City steering (girl mode) button on all Dynamics, 150 included.

Cadabena · Apr 6, 2017

Re: &amp;lt;as yet unnamed&amp;gt;, our 120hp Tjet Bravo

1.8Stilo said:
It's a shame the Tjet unit is being faded out of production shortly as it is a peach and something special in the A595/A695.

Is it really going out of production? I thought it was being ramped up to replace the MultiAir (either out of reliability issues or that they're going for a Fiat-Tjet/Alfa MAir distinction), both the Tipo and 500X offer the 120hp Tjet but no MultiAir.

1.8Stilo · Apr 6, 2017

Re: &lt;as yet unnamed&gt;, our 120hp Tjet Bravo

Tipo yes has the Tjet but the 500x has the 140 multi air. The Tjet dates back to the uno.

There was a press release recently which detailed the engine's fiat were going to focus on producing, which are firefly engines?! then fade out such engines as the Tjet and fire engines that have been around for years

I also agree with the reliability of the Tjet being better than multi air, although I'm lead to believe this is better now ?

Cadabena · Apr 7, 2017

Re: &lt;as yet unnamed&gt;, our 120hp Tjet Bravo

Interesting. Information here for anyone interested. The new 1.3 turbo could be fun, a shame they're going down the well-trodden 1.0 3 cylinder turbo route that all other manufacturers have gone down, but hey who can blame them.

Also, entirely unrelated, but is this normal for the exhaust to wobble so much? I don't think it's the standard exhaust, which is fine, but I want to make sure it's secured properly. I think there's a bit of ribbon holding it on just down from the back box.

[ame]https://youtu.be/mRowRk8XISE[/ame]

1.8Stilo · Apr 8, 2017

Do you have any knocking noises when you go over speed humps, bumps in the road or around corners. The rubbers on the hangers tend perish which will allow more movement.

1.8Stilo · Apr 9, 2017

1.8Stilo said:
Do you have any knocking noises when you go over speed humps, bumps in the road or around corners. The rubbers on the hangers tend perish which will allow more movement.

I just see this picture, it shows how close the exhaust sits to the rear beam and spare wheel. Which goes back to my point about the rubber mounts, which you can see both in the picture!

http://www.fiat-sportiva.de/images/product_images/popup_images/2287_1.jpg

When I changed my exhaust bracket, I used the Stilo bracket mount here as it was the same as the bravo's but half the price

I also put a cable tie around where you can see the fabric strap to keep it torqued up nicely!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-X-BACK-...850503?hash=item2104d2e3c7:g:9-EAAOSwo6lWMkqi

I never replaced the rear mount, but you can get poly version like these:

http://www.fiat-sportiva.de/Tuning-...2/Exhaust-Systems/PU-Exhaust-Mount::2909.html

Cadabena · Apr 15, 2017

Thanks a lot Stilo! I will see if I get change to jack the car up to look closer over the holidays.

Also, had a strange problem with the rear window washer. Turns out it wasn't working at all - my heart sank, however checking under the bonnet I found out it had simply just become disconnected (next to the fuse box, which is hardly ideal). Weird. At least it was an easy fix (then again, I own a Fiat - why am I even complaining about strange little niggles like this?!

).

Cadabena · May 22, 2017

So it turns out that the exhaust is a fully custom stainless steel ProFlow setup, and it looks as though the tip the last owner chose was for the Bravo Sport which has a gap cut out of the bumper, and thus it bounces off the bumper over every bump. Planning to get a new subtle tip fitted and the mount replaced at the same time. As mildly annoying as this is, I think it's pretty cool I got a stainless steel exhaust for free

I wonder what other goodies (or not so goodies) might be hidden...

Cadabena · Oct 31, 2017

We finally got sick of Blue&Me and went down the double DIN route:

It's a 2gb Intel Sofia unit and is pretty nippy. Steering wheel controls all work perfectly with Dynamic Sounds patch lead. Since these photos a nice plastic surround has been added to make it look flush. Next week, reversing camera goes in!

Bravo <as yet unnamed>, our 120hp Tjet Bravo

Introduction

Candisa

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Matthen

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Candisa

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allan jenkins

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Candisa

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Matthen

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Cadabena

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Cadabena

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1.8Stilo

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1.8Stilo

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