Fiat are last again

"Fiat's poor result overall certainly isn't the Panda's fault. It's the best-performing Fiat in this year's survey and is second in class.
The bedrock of the Panda's strong showing is good reliability - the best of any city car.If only the service from dealers had been better, the Panda might have given the Aygo a pair of black eyes"

"Fiat Grande Punto - When everything was working, owners rather liked the car, with respectable scores for vehicle appeal.However, poor dealer service proved the nail in the Grande Punto's coffin"

Dont make for good reading does it but what is going wrong? OK most of you know that I see it from a different perspective than many of you so i'll give you my view then if you can spare a few minutes give me yours....you never know we might get fiat off the bottom

Quality/reliaility are main scoring points in the survey but is this unfair to Fiat after all its basically a economy car built to a price & will never reach the quality of many jap/german makes. Also does the owner expect to much? Another point is a BMW owner (for exammple & not stereotyping here) will defend his choice of car till the end of time & refuse to believe it has faults yet a fiat owner often says things like "yeah it will do for now until I can afford a audi" etc etc....often almost apologising for owning a Fiat! Come survey time then Fiats will get marked down, is this true?

Dealers is another main problem area but is this really justified? I go to lots of garages and see the same problems at all makes of car dealerships so why is Fiat worse Techs are trained to Ford/BMW standards & there are loads of ATA approved techs so what is letting the side down?

Honest & justified opinions please, just because the receptionist was putting her make up on or salesman didn't know wether the active model comes with colour coded mirrors or tech accidently leaves fingerprint on door panel doesn't mean the garage/Fiat should be slated over this should it?

What would you like to see improved at all levels to make you score Fat higher in these surveys?

T14086 said:

What would you like to see improved at all levels to make you score Fiat higher in these surveys?

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Sheesh, that's a big question for a Sunday morning! I never bought new from a dealer or completed a JD Power survey so perhaps I shouldn't reply here at all.

However, speaking as a used FIAT buyer, I've always accepted I was paying considerably less than other makes so made allowances for anything that was 'cheap and cheerful'. Perhaps if I was buying new, and parting with £300 or £400 a month I would fall into the WhatCar? mentality of examining every bit of trim down to the nth degree. In a way, I'd like FIAT to more realistic about their pricing; their list prices are below most rivals but it seems they are nearly always heavily discounted. Perhaps if this was reflected more in list price it would focus the company's image more as a 'budget' make. Then again - like you say - perhaps people do resent slumming it in a cheap FIAT until they can get their BMW and just can't see the difference in design philosophy! That said, even allowing for the fact FIAT invest far less than BMW in design, development, testing and building their cars, they really do need to improve QA to at least match someone like Hyundai. (btw, why are Alfa Romeo missing from the list?)

As for the dealers, well they are the 'face' of the company so have to get it right don't they? Even if they are trained to exactly the same level and share premises, I can imagine if 'Make A' has no real problems and an importer who doesn't hold out on warranty claims and 'Make B' has lots of niggling problems and an importer who reacts slowly or not at all, then there will be a different perception given out. It's just human nature; when things are going well it easy to be nice and helpful with the customers, quiet different if all you are getting is continual grief from both the public and the importer (again, I’m making allowances, but that’s just me I guess). I think FIAT(UK) still have some way to go from what I read here, but it would be interesting to see how FIAT are perceived in other markets; what are they doing differently there? Over to you FFs…

and fiat get knocked down again because they havent paid the magazine a nice amount of money

Schwenck said:

I never bought new from a dealer or completed a JD Power survey so perhaps I shouldn't reply here at all.

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course you can Your view (wether) good or bad can affect a friends decision to buy or not to buy a Fiat etc so all views welcome.

Schwenck said:

However, speaking as a used FIAT buyer, I've always accepted I was paying considerably less than other makes so made allowances for anything that was 'cheap and cheerful'. Perhaps if I was buying new, and parting with £300 or £400 a month I would fall into the WhatCar? mentality of examining every bit of trim down to the nth degree.

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A very honest view

Schwenck said:

That said, even allowing for the fact FIAT invest far less than BMW in design, development, testing and building their cars, they really do need to improve QA to at least match someone like Hyundai. (btw, why are Alfa Romeo missing from the list?)

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I agree quality control could be better or is this just a Italian thing?

Alfa....I think the car broke down on the way to the survey:devil:

Do you think 'snobbery' plays a part in these surveys?

Joshua Frost-Lunn said:

and fiat get knocked down again because they havent paid the magazine a nice amount of money

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Josh I couldn't believe that post (which I cant find) about the bravo brakes failing according to VW, why wasn't anything done about it after all its corperate slander is it not?

Schwenck said:

However, speaking as a used FIAT buyer, I've always accepted I was paying considerably less than other makes so made allowances for anything that was 'cheap and cheerful'. Perhaps if I was buying new, and parting with £300 or £400 a month I would fall into the WhatCar? mentality of examining every bit of trim down to the nth degree.

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And this is where I believe the dealer mentality sits as well. I have visibly been treated differently to a Subaru buyer yet we are both in the same dealership at the same time. I have seen an OAP lambasted publicly in a Fiat dealership, inexcusable. To me the Fiat customer is seemed as an inconvenience.

I recently bought a cheap (7K) Megane from a Honda dealer. Obviously it was just a trade in for someone but for me it was just what I needed. Did the dealer treat me any differently? no, they were grateful, honest & friendly; they couldn't do enough for me. My experience is based on three Fiat dealerships and each occasion was more like a dentist waiting room than a dealership.

Is this the end of my affair with Fiats? probably unless they get off the bottom of that survey.

Having bought two new fiats in the last 12months I think the main problem is the product quality.

I went into buying the my Grande Punto totally open minded not believing all the stereotyping etc. The dealer was excellant from day one up until I sold the car, they even offered advice on price etc for selling. However another I visited was awful and seemed to question whether I was serious about buying. I think the difference has a big effect on reputation.
I only kept the GPS for 7months for a number of reasons but the main one being the constant small niggles, rattles and creaks. They just never seemed to be resolved and I visited the dealer 9times. The thought of keeping it for more than 2years worried me. I know other brands have problems but having had a new micra and fiesta these have not had more than a couple of dealer visits during the first 3 years.
I do think in the next 18months fiats will move up the survey, especially with the new 500 and Bravo and hopefully an improved Grande Punto.
The 500 we now have seems so much better made than the GP and has only had one visit to the dealer in 4months to look at random flashing mileage. Again though they couldn't resolve the issue but where helpful in saying if it happens again just come straight round to the workshop anytime. They do seem to have a lack information direct from fiat regarding problems
It's frustrating because the you almost would rather something mechanical break because you know it would be a simple fix rather than small frustrating problems.

I think if Fiat can iron out these annoying niggles,improve the poorer dealerships and the PDI side of things it will make a vast improvement in the ratings. I do think they are trying and Fiat UK seem excellant and trying to help you.

bozzy said:

My experience is based on three Fiat dealerships and each occasion was more like a dentist waiting room than a dealership.

Is this the end of my affair with Fiats? probably unless they get off the bottom of that survey.

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I'm aware you have dealer issues Bozzy but could you narrow it down abit, was it the attitude of salesmen, reception, left sitting for hours etc, cheers

T14086 said:

Do you think 'snobbery' plays a part in these surveys?

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Just a bit! As ever, its driven (sorry, bad pun) by motoring magazines in the UK. You know the old "small cars are what FIAT do best" etc, in other words "know your place". A bit like they never let you forget than a Jaguar X-Type is a Mondeo underneath, kind of implying it was little more than a barrow boy in a Saville Row suit (it made no difference it was a good car built on underpinnings of a very good car).

On the Autocar forum there is a thread with people decrying the new MiTo as a badged engineered GP which smacks of snobbery to me. It's hardly badge engineering like an Allegro with a Vanden Plas grill, or perhaps more appropriately the dreadful Alfa Romeo Arna.

Schwenck said:

Just a bit! As ever, its driven (sorry, bad pun) by motoring magazines in the UK. You know the old "small cars are what FIAT do best" etc, in other words "know your place". .

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So what were saying is Fiat will never climb out of the bottom 5 of the JD power survey because of this?

Can we also say that Honda/toyota etc owners are more likely to complete JD power surveys (as they like talking/boasting about their cars) compared to alot of Fiat owners who just brought a cheap car to get around in & not too bothered about specification let alone surveys?

nebrog23 said:

I do think in the next 18months fiats will move up the survey, especially with the new 500 and Bravo and hopefully an improved Grande Punto.

They do seem to have a lack information direct from fiat regarding problems
It's frustrating because the you almost would rather something mechanical break because you know it would be a simple fix rather than small frustrating problems.

I think if Fiat can iron out these annoying niggles,improve the poorer dealerships and the PDI side of things it will make a vast improvement in the ratings. I do think they are trying and Fiat UK seem excellant and trying to help you.

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Agree again

Fiat have focused strongly on the JD survey. On the 'lack information direct from fiat regarding problems' again I agree, is this just the Italian way or dont they just listen to Fiat UK or the techs who report problems found.

Personally all PDI's (in my opinion) should be tested & signed of by DET or senior tech as way too many come back with silly faults that should of been rectified before release.

T14086 said:

So what were saying is Fiat will never climb out of the bottom 5 of the JD power survey because of this?

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Not necessarily, even they can't mis-report the numbers that much!

Looking at the table, the differences appear - if I understand it correctly - very small. If FIAT committed to realistic 1.5% improvement in the next two years it should put them in roughly the right area; aiming any higher and they'd have to start pricing like (most) of the top ten. Trouble is I suppose you are always shooting at a moving target and all manufacturers will depend on improving their score simply by replacing old models with new ones. From what I read on here, things are improving but there's some way to go yet.

would anyone buy/not buy a car on the basis of this report?



(is that duncan ferguson?)

My dealer experience has always been excellent, staff, surroundings etc all fine by me. My biggest FIAT issue (with my dealer) is the cost of the servicing. Cheap to buy, costly to run is not the philosophy of success for budget car buyers. I have read and heard all the anecdotes about the cost of Examiner, fuel filters and bits etc but it still doesnt make sense to have to fork out possibly in excess of 400 to service a budget car at 30,000 miles, sorry it just doesnt. Cheap cars should be cheap to buy and service, no pretentions.

IMO FIAT have to establish where they want to position themselves in the world car market, cheap to buy and maintain, mid range or expensive to buy and maintain. With the former niggles and more frequent dealer visits under warranty can be forgiven, with the latter it is far less forgivable, that is when comparisons with other makes are fair. I have a "good" GPS. Lucky? Maybe, would I buy again? Probably? What are my alternatives for the price..... Suzuki... aah yes.... my FIAT dealer is also my Suzuki dealer....

Ffoxy said:

it still doesnt make sense to have to fork out possibly in excess of 400 to service a budget car at 30,000 miles, sorry it just doesnt.

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Prices do seem to vary somewhat! I have seen a garage charge £125 for GP first service & 12 miles down the road £245 by another dealer

T14086 said:

Prices do seem to vary somewhat! I have seen a garage charge £125 for GP first service & 12 miles down the road £245 by another dealer

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I know that T, I negotiated my 1st service (glorified oil / filter change?) free at purchase, maybe they were trying to recover the cost of that at the 2nd service. But there you have it WRT the dealerships, variation in costs, possibly in skills and service levels too. The treatment a Customer gets should be a World experience by a World manufacturer, the experience really should be the same in all those terms in whatever FIAT dealer you visit and in whatever country you are in.

Ffoxy said:

I know that T, I negotiated my 1st service (glorified oil / filter change?)

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plugs.....you have petrol/diesel?

This is where I differ somewhat.......example ford first service is check lights & levels, renew oil/filter. Fiat service is more detailed (locks lubricated & inspection with car raised, examiner report etc) so I dont see it as a glorified oil change but again some garages will do a better service than others but thats us getting into the realm of large dealership chains putting profit before customer care......then again this is part of the customer experience so maybe it should be mentioned here?

Ffoxy said:

The treatment a Customer gets should be a World experience by a World manufacturer, the experience really should be the same in all those terms in whatever FIAT dealer you visit and in whatever country you are in.

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T14086 said:

I'm aware you have dealer issues Bozzy but could you narrow it down abit, was it the attitude of salesmen, reception, left sitting for hours etc, cheers

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Some time ago I went to trade in my Stilo for an Abarth, I was sat with the salesman for 15 minutes, pricing up and he went to check something with the manager. After about 30 minutes ( absolute truth) he came back and said "Oh sorry, I forgot about you"

Same dealer lost my wheel nut (locking) and said there's nothing we can do until after the weekend (was a Friday evening) when the tech gets back in.

Same dealer service desk (not receptionist) ripped the crap out of an OAP in front of a busy reception area. I recall another customer giving the trappy bloke a mouthful for showing an old bloke up like that.

Different dealer calls me to let me know my brake hose has arrived. Turn up 30 miles later to find out that actually it won't be here till Monday

Another dealer fits spring catchers when he can clearly see the Eibach's, got into a dispute when he finally agreed a recall is at the discretion of the customer, not the dealer.

I have spent a lot of money with Fiat and whilst I don't mind paying top dollar for the privelidge I do expect some reasonable behaviour when I am in their company. As Ffoxy says, cheap car cheap servicing but you can hardly call it that. No, these dealerships put Fiat at the bottom for a good reason, they are generally poor.

T14086 said:

plugs.....you have petrol/diesel?

This is where I differ somewhat.......example ford first service is check lights & levels, renew oil/filter. Fiat service is more detailed (locks lubricated & inspection with car raised, examiner report etc) so I dont see it as a glorified oil change but again some garages will do a better service than others but thats us getting into the realm of large dealership chains putting profit before customer care......then again this is part of the customer experience so maybe it should be mentioned here?

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1.9 diesel T. but I got no Examiner report or advisory so as far as I am concerned they did nothing extra. Now if they did maybe they should have told me or given me the Examiner print-out? That would have made me feel good, that they had looked after me and my car.

bozzy said:

Some time ago I went to trade in my Stilo for an Abarth, I was sat with the salesman for 15 minutes, pricing up and he went to check something with the manager. After about 30 minutes ( absolute truth) he came back and said "Oh sorry, I forgot about you"

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:shakehead: not much you can say to that is there!

bozzy said:

Same dealer service desk (not receptionist) ripped the crap out of an OAP in front of a busy reception area. I recall another customer giving the trappy bloke a mouthful for showing an old bloke up like that.

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That gets me angry that does (ok I dont know what the OAP done to get this response) there is a law against abuse,physical & verbal, so this is totally out of order. I hope someone got their balls kicked right hard for this and a full apology given!

bozzy said:

I have spent a lot of money with Fiat and whilst I don't mind paying top dollar for the privelidge I do expect some reasonable behaviour when I am in their company. As Ffoxy says, cheap car cheap servicing but you can hardly call it that. No, these dealerships put Fiat at the bottom for a good reason, they are generally poor.

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You would of thought that retaining the customer was top priority. Where these dealers part of a large chain? (not asking you to mention names)

Ffoxy said:

1.9 diesel T. but I got no Examiner report or advisory so as far as I am concerned they did nothing extra. Now if they did maybe they should have told me or given me the Examiner print-out? That would have made me feel good, that they had looked after me and my car.

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I always give examner printouts, proves work was done after all alot of work the customer cant see so wheres the proof it was done? Service sheet clearly states 'check with examiner for EOBD errors' !

Ive always made it known I hated my dealer in Rochdale was lythgoe now Stoneacre. They totally ripped me off on work I had done and they damaged my car.... I swore never to go to a dealer again.

H bought his panda from stoneacre in wrexham. The selling of the car was "ok" although i felt like we were being hounded and pushed but I batteled with the sales guy to bring the price down as his sums didnt add up after he said he had knocked some money off when he did the monthly payments he took it off the deposit and added into the monthly payments to make it look like he had knocked some off so i was about to drag H out the door as it felt like we were being conned.

When we bought the car we couldnt find fault with the car when the first service was due we took it there. The service itself wasnt very good, there was dirty prints on the dash and its cost an obsene amount of money.

The when the next service was due, H took it to TJ vickers at shrewsbury and they are exactly what you want from a dealer. nothing is too much trouble. We went there a couple of weeks ago to look at the 1.2 GP to see what i thought. H at the time mentioned to the parts dept about his boot lock not working properly becuase of the chip. They said fine when can you bring it in? It will take a couple of days to get the part... they didnt even look at the car or question anything?!?!?
Also the car comes back sparkling - they give it a good wash and also when a fog light had smashed on the panda H took it to TJ vickers, when he collected it after they fitted the part they told him that they hadnt done one before on the sporting and they had to take the bumper off and took a lot longer than they thought. It took a few hours but only charged for an hour.

We were left to browse round the cars and one sales guy chatted to us, he wasnt pushy just asked what it was i was looking for what my budget was etc... He showed me the 1.3MJ and was exactly what i was looking for.

Went to pick the car up they said about a mark on the rear bumper and said they would take the car back in and give me a coursety car for the day to get it sorted.

I am really happy with the dealer and thank god we found them and not going to stoneacre otherwise i dont think i would have bought another fiat again.

Sorry for the ramble but i do think the dealers have the biggest impact on buying a car and the after service. TJ vickers are brilliant and i cant fault them!