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Old 28-08-2010   #31
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Re: What's broken on yours then?

Quote Originally Posted by s130 View Post
Lets keep these issues rolling in.

"Inherent Fault(s)" is beginning to loom on my radar.

From "The Law Relating to
the Supply of Goods
and Services"

"Buyers are entitled to goods of satisfactory
quality, taking account of any description,
the price and other relevant circumstances.
If an item has a fault that is present at the
time of sale (sometimes referred to in this
guidance as a "latent" or "inherent" fault),
the consumer can complain once it is
discovered."

http://www.bis.gov.uk/files/file25486.pdf

Note there is no specific time limit, only what is just reasonably acceptable.
Hi s130,
I've been thinking the same thing, part of the reasoning behind my initial post.

I'm really not sure whether a whole combination of seemingly - unrelated failures would cumulatively amount to at least some of these cars being not fit for purpose though. Also, Fiat's first defence will be that they give the cars a warranty so that they can fix any faults that arise.

What is clear though is that given the relatively small numbers sold and the relatively high number a failures related just here, never mind all of the faults that we don't know about, something isn't right.

I'd love to know whether there was any way of getting registered keeper data from DVLA. I'd use it to write to everyone to ask them about their faults, maybe even getting them to get copies of their service records and then we'd know just how bad the cars actually are or maybe just how unlucky many of us have been.
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Old 28-08-2010   #32
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Re: What's broken on yours then?

Quote Originally Posted by BrianMcL View Post

I'd love to know whether there was any way of getting registered keeper data from DVLA. I'd use it to write to everyone to ask them about their faults, maybe even getting them to get copies of their service records and then we'd know just how bad the cars actually are or maybe just how unlucky many of us have been.
Why dwell on it? sell it and but something jap, life is too short.I have owned around 38-40 cars and any I didn't like (or have a good gut feeling about) I sold it/them and got something else I did like/trust
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Old 28-08-2010   #33
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Re: What's broken on yours then?

Quote Originally Posted by T14086 View Post
Why dwell on it? sell it and but something jap, life is too short.I have owned around 38-40 cars and any I didn't like (or have a good gut feeling about) I sold it/them and got something else I did like/trust
Hi T14086,
Simple reason is that I've lost so much money over the last 3 1/2 years between buying it and what the dealer says it's worth now in addition to the extraordinary cost of constantly buying new bits for it that I can't afford to get rid of it.
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Old 28-08-2010   #34
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Re: What's broken on yours then?

can you afford to sell and buy private, dealer trade-ins are convient but crap value....unless its a real dog as they rarely check trade in, salesman walks around it once and thats it!
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Old 28-08-2010   #35
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Re: What's broken on yours then?

Just a thought/question (and I don't know the answer)...

Does the buyer of a second hand car have any kind of right to complain/comebeck against the manufacturer?

Obviously a new buyer has every right. Once it's second hand then are all rights of comeback only against the dealer/person who sold it?

I'm wondering whether it could be argued that its poor reliability reputation was reflected in the price, therefore I got what I paid for - a cheap but flaky car.

Personally I think all european cars are crap these days. One day they'll wake up and wonder where all their customers have gone.
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Old 28-08-2010   #36
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Re: What's broken on yours then?

Quote Originally Posted by T14086 View Post
can you afford to sell and buy private, dealer trade-ins are convient but crap value....unless its a real dog as they rarely check trade in, salesman walks around it once and thats it!
I'm going to have to bite the bullet on it at some point but there always seem to be other priorities. It just sticks in the throat though given that I bought a brand new car on the basis that I was going to keep it for 4 or 5 years only find that it's a money pit.
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Old 31-08-2010   #37
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Re: What's broken on yours then?

Hi everyone

Regarding the law - forget it, it's not for us mortals. When I first got mine I had a persistent (but annoyingly occasional) hill hold function failure/ASR failure message keep coming up (hence the changing of lots of electrical bits).

It took the dealer 7 months to fix it, including an online diagnostics check to Turin.

Consequently, we went down this route to find that even though the car was 2 years old and previously owned by a dealer we still had recourse under the Sale of Goods Act. This Act has 3 remedies.

1. To give the dealer opportunity to fix the car.
2. Given that this is not possible, a replacement vehicle (we were at this stage with the dealer and we thought we had a resolution, but they weltched on the deal).
3. Demand your money back.

Now, if you don't come to an agreement you can try and sue them in the civil courts. Now listen carefully for I am about to tell you for free that which cost me 300 in legal fees: Don't bother.

It will cost you at least 3,000 to take the case to court. If you win, you are still not guaranteed 100% of your money back. The court can allow for use of the vehicle, wear and tear and depreciation.

However, that's not the worst part. People are under the impression that if you win you will get your costs back. NOT TRUE. Typically a court will usually award no more than 75% of your costs, and it can even be zero (yes you can still win and be 3,000 out of pocket). If you lose you will inevitably have to make a contribution to the other side's costs (which can be as much as 100%).

Being in the right is no guarantee of winning. You can have them stitched up like a kipper and still lose because the beak in charge argued with his missus that morning and considers your case trifling.

The law is not on the side on the man on the Clapham Omnibus. It favours the rich and the powerful; has done for Centuries and doesn't look like changing in the very near future.

Anyone fancy an appearance on Watchdog? mind watch the value of the Croma plummet further if you do.
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Last edited by Radlet6; 31-08-2010 at 21:03.
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Old 31-08-2010   #38
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Re: What's broken on yours then?

Quote Originally Posted by Radlet6 View Post
Hi everyone

Regarding the law - forget it, it's not for us mortals. When I first got mine I had a persistent (but annoyingly occasional) hill hold function failure/ASR failure message keep coming up (hence the changing of lots of electrical bits).

It took the dealer 7 months to fix it, including an online diagnostics check to Turin.

Consequently, we went down this route to find that even though the car was 2 years old and previously owned by a dealer we still had recourse under the Sale of Goods Act. This Act has 3 remedies.

1. To give the dealer opportunity to fix the car.
2. Given that this is not possible, a replacement vehicle (we were at this stage with the dealer and we thought we had a resolution, but they weltched on the deal).
3. Demand your money back.

Now, if you don't come to an agreement you can try and sue them in the civil courts. Now listen carefully for I am about to tell you for free that which cost me 300 in legal fees: Don't bother.

It will cost you at least 3,000 to take the case to court. If you win, you are still not guaranteed 100% of your money back. The court can allow for use of the vehicle, wear and tear and depreciation.

However, that's not the worst part. People are under the impression that if you win you will get your costs back. NOT TRUE. Typically a court will usually award no more than 75% of your costs, and it can even be zero (yes you can still win and be 3,000 out of pocket). If you lose you will inevitably have to make a contribution to the other side's costs (which can be as much as 100%).

Being in the right is no guarantee of winning. You can have them stitched up like a kipper and still lose because the beak in charge argued with his missus that morning and considers your case trifling.

The law is not on the side on the man on the Clapham Omnibus. It favours the rich and the powerful; has done for Centuries and doesn't look like changing in the very near future.

Anyone fancy an appearance on Watchdog? mind watch the value of the Croma plummet further if you do.
Hi Radlet,
Sounds as if you had an even worse time than me at the hands of Fiat and the dealer.

I got to the stage of formally rejecting my car in writing, with dealer's response paraphrased as being we've fixed your car now, come and get it. If you don't we'll charge you storage (I've still got the emails) and trading standards advice was to give in and take it back.

They even welched on a free second service as compensation for my problems when the dealer said they couldn't find any record of it on their system, despite me having an email accepting their offer and signed by the then dealer manager.

The dealer's main point was that it was a one off and I had simply experienced a few teething problems which I should stop taking so personally.

If I've learned anything here it's that the troubles I've had are anything but a one off or teething problems.

You're probably right in that I'm never going to get anywhere, but equally if I don't try then there's no reason for the dealer or manufacturer to fix anything and things will only keep getting worse.
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Old 02-09-2010   #39
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Re: What's broken on yours then?

Quote Quote:


do you mean 'excessive radiant temperature'? Happens only when starting the car?

Yeh thats the one not sure y it does it tho
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Last edited by Matt Boulton; 02-09-2010 at 22:08.
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Old 03-09-2010   #40
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Re: What's broken on yours then?

Quote Originally Posted by Radlet6 View Post
1. To give the dealer opportunity to fix the car.
2. Given that this is not possible, a replacement vehicle (we were at this stage with the dealer and we thought we had a resolution, but they weltched on the deal).
3. Demand your money back.
I was wondering about the situation when buying used from a non-Fiat dealer or privately. Can you then complain to Fiat if it's poorly designed or not fit for purpose etc? I don't know the answer to this.

Edit: Realised I was talking crap about small claims court, as that's only for claims up to 5k.
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Last edited by Doofer; 03-09-2010 at 21:06.
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Old 03-09-2010   #41
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Re: What's broken on yours then?

Quote Originally Posted by Matt Boulton View Post
Yeh thats the one not sure y it does it tho
voltage issue
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Old 03-09-2010   #42
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Re: What's broken on yours then?

Well having seen the posts so far it kind of leads me to the "mutual support and mitigation strategy".

By this I mean that in many cases we are probably far better off with this forum's peer help, advice etc. than pursuing dealers or other legal avenues.

At least when we share our problems and solutions here we are actually saving ourselves a shed load of money and agro in getting solutions to specific problems.

There is of course a fine line where honest, decent Fiat UK/Dealer support could make all the difference, but from what I have generally and recently observed here there would appear to be some big holes in the Fiat UK/Dealer customer support area.
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Old 04-09-2010   #43
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Re: What's broken on yours then?

We all know that there are common faults, which are certainly design issues. I'd be all up for us all chasing Fiat like a pack of wolves to get some sensible compensation for some of the common issues.

However, I'd assume that almost all of us got our cars used. I don't know whether we therefore have any right to claim anything from Fiat at all.

Besides, Cromas are getting old enough now for Fiat to say that anything is wear and tear. It's probably too late to do anything now.

So I agree... Help and sharing tips is the way forward. There's a little satisfaction in not buying any parts from Fiat, to ensure they don't benefit from their crappy design.
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Old 05-09-2010   #44
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Re: What's broken on yours then?

s130 / doofer
Fair points guys - mine was pre reg but with hindsight I'd expect that both Fiat and Arnold Clark would be embarrassed not only with the faults mine has suffered but also how they've been dealt with.

Notwithstanding, without the support of members here I'd have been at the mercy of a main dealer whose mechanics didn't understand their own diag software and who wanted 500 + Vat to run tests that with hindsight would eventually (if theyd've worked) told me that I needed a new EGR.

If the first part of the Fiat diag was "blank the EGR and run it for 1000km or so until the DPF regenerates and see if that cures it, if so it's not the DPF it's the EGR" I'd be about 400 better off.

Without this forum, however, I'd have given them the money, swallowed whatever nonsense came next and them maybe even paid them more.

I was at my wits end when you guys stepped in with your common sense and knowledge so once again thank you.
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Last edited by BrianMcL; 05-09-2010 at 00:08.
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Old 05-09-2010   #45
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Re: What's broken on yours then?

Quote Originally Posted by Doofer View Post
We all know that there are common faults, which are certainly design issues. I'd be all up for us all chasing Fiat like a pack of wolves to get some sensible compensation for some of the common issues.
There's a little satisfaction in not buying any parts from Fiat, to ensure they don't benefit from their crappy design.
All cars have faults, some obvious that should of been dealt with before production but most that develop afterwards completely unforseen. Ask any MOT tester who knows exactly where to look on any car...weak points.
Not wanting to buy Fiat parts is completely the individuals choice and i would be the fist to question fiat prices on some items but the only ones you really would be hurting are the workers at the dealerships. Using a forum, such as this, would probably be the best way to voice your dissatisfaction towards Fiat or the croma to be more specific.



Quote Originally Posted by BrianMcL View Post
s130 / doofer
Fair points guys - mine was pre reg but with hindsight I'd expect that both Fiat and Arnold Clark would be embarrassed not only with the faults mine has suffered but also how they've been dealt with.

Notwithstanding, without the support of members here I'd have been at the mercy of a main dealer whose mechanics didn't understand their own diag software and who wanted 500 + Vat to run tests that with hindsight would eventually (if theyd've worked) told me that I needed a new EGR.

If the first part of the Fiat diag was "blank the EGR and run it for 1000km or so until the DPF regenerates and see if that cures it, if so it's not the DPF it's the EGR" I'd be about 400 better off.

Without this forum, however, I'd have given them the money, swallowed whatever nonsense came next and them maybe even paid them more.

I was at my wits end when you guys stepped in with your common sense and knowledge so once again thank you.
I would only talk to the DET at the named garages. There are set diagnostic routines to diagnose faults including the EGR,DPF.air flow issues so theres really no excuse from dealers except (from what I read into all this) time allocated for correct diagnosis.

Pity because I still like the croma and wish I could afford one but with prices falling there might be hope yet
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