(Long post alert)

I seem to have blown the head gasket on my 2002 Sei SX.

Around december-time it drank half a tank of water in one journey, and was puffing white steam out, but then hasn't been using any water or oil up until last week.

After one 15 mile journey the whole tank was empty, (I know it was full before as I just washed the car and I always do my checks just after i wash it!) It also gurgled after I switched the car off.

So I refilled the tank with warmish water from the kettle, waited for a few hours, went on another journey just 3 miles to the supermarket, and found when I got there, the water halfway between 'max' and 'min' marks. (It also gurgles now every time it's switched off) I drove home and when I got home it was under the 'min' mark again. So I topped it up, went to bed, got up next morning to go out and it started, sounded like it was running on 2 or 3 cylinders. Revving the engine didn't help, so I though maybe it's a dead plug, pulled all the spark plugs, and found plug no.2 (assuming cyl no.2 is second from cambelt end) covered in petrol, the rest of the plugs were dry. So I changed all 4 plugs for a spare (used) set I had, and it started fine.

After this journey I left the car for only 1 hour and came back out to it, started it and it was running on 3 again! Revving it high several times, it kicked in and started running ok again. I then rang my dad (handsfree, I might add) whilst driving around the block several times, and he said the water must be going through the head gasket into cylinder no.2 and that's where all the water's going, and when the car's switched off the water is filling cylinder no.2 up, so that's why it starts running on 3 when I start it.

It is using no oil at all, I'd just changed the oil a week ago so have been monitoring the oil level closely anyway.

Does this diagnosis sound correct to you? Is it worth getting it compression tested or is it definitely the head gasket? There's no visible water leaks, and there's never any puddles of water under the car.

Any help greatly appreciated,

Sounds right. Do a compression test dry then wet (a small amount of oil in the cylinders) & look for a variance between cylinders. That should reveal if your diagnosis is right. If cylinder 2 is down on compression and it doesn't improve with oil the you've almost certainly got a blown HG & if it isn't any repairs require the head to be taken off anyway.

Have you ever bled the cooling system when filling?

Cheers

SPD

rallycinq said:

Have you ever bled the cooling system when filling?

Click to expand...

No.

Any advice on doing that would be great, I understand there are two bleed points, but where exactly are they? Is it done with the engine on? If so, would you recommend doing it with the engine only running on 3 cylinders? As I've heard that causes unburnt fuel going into the catalyst? Is it the same as bleeding the brakes, as in you do it until just water comes out with no air bubbles?

Pretty much. Engine off. But point is the damage has probably already been done.

Get a compression test done first, chances are the HG has gone, so bleeding it now will do no good at all.

Then, after you've done the HG, see if you can find a cause other than the HG for the loss of fluid.

Point is, if you'd bled the system at the start, the HG going may well have been avoided.

fingers99 said:

Point is, if you'd bled the system at the start, the HG going may well have been avoided.

Click to expand...

Didn't realise it could do this. Well I'll just have to deal with it now!

Right well I've done a dry compression test, the results were:

219 PSI Cylinder 1 (Nearest to cambelt end)
189 PSI Cyl 2
169 PSI Cyl 3
219 PSI Cyl 4 (nearest to coil pack end)

All done with the accelerator pressed all the way down.

So does this kit have all the gaskets I'd need?

EDIT - I can't see an inlet mainfold gasket in that kit - does the MPI (187A1) engine have a reusable one?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FIAT-PANDA-PUNTO-SEICENTO-HEAD-GASKET-SET-187A1-188A4_W0QQitemZ200343915731QQcmdZViewItem

Also, does anyone know of the correct order for removal and refitting of head bolts?

https://www.fiatforum.com/cinquecento-seicento-guides/136702-cylinder-head-gasket-remove-refit.html

The ogre custard will complain if you dont read.

If you have eroded the head it is sometimes possible to salve using aluminium loaded epoxy.

Probably I'm in trouble twice now...

Noel

Head is unlikely to be eroded, but check. The link to the gaslket set doesn't work, but the inlet mani on the MPI has neoprene rings which are usually OK. While the head is off, cut in the valves and re-set the valve clearances (shims). I'm inclined to use new head bolts.

Remember, "alto" means "top".

Aaaaah sorry Fingers

The the guide linked mentions reworking after erosion - one option may be epoxy, which with care you can do at home. Of course you may be able to weld aluminium, but it is well inconvient.

Noel

I've yet to see it, but that car was probably run without anti-freeze for most of its life, poor thing. It does seem to be pretty rare.

Pep0 - I have that guide open in the other tab

The link to the gasket set - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FIAT-PANDA-PUNTO-SEICENTO-HEAD-GASKET-SET-187A1-188A4_W0QQitemZ200343915731

fingers99 said:

While the head is off, cut in the valves and re-set the valve clearances (shims).

Click to expand...

Are there any guides or threads that you would recommend reading? I've done a search but I didn't find anything which explains how to do it, or what the valve shims are? The only thing I've found out is that the 899 has hydraulic self-adjusting and the 1108 doesn't.

That's everything. The green bits are the neoprene O ring (but not O shaped!) thingies for the inlet mani.

It's all in the Haynes Cinq book -- much easier to do than describe -- generally you'll need just a set of (metric) feeler guages, although some cheapo electronic vernier calipers (or borrow a micrometer) can be handy, a calculator and some paper.

Somewhere there's a lengthy thread with me explaining it to levimir -- search for shim or shimming should find it.

It's actually a 40k mile service item.............

Well seeing as my car is at 61,000 miles! I will definitely look into that, thanks fingers.

I have a Haynes cinq manual, and a micrometer and some imperial feeler gauges, but I could easily get hold of some metric ones

Hi

As well as the guides and asking questions here I'd recomment the Haynes manual.

The shims are like 2 GBP coins only thicker, ans silver metal, well steel then.

You head may be warped and need grinding flat again, etc. sometimes they go porous but your symptoms sound like a failed head gasket.

Noel

^as all above really

compression down on the two middle cylinders definatly points to a blown gasket

if you are handy with tools, you may be able to do this job yourself, but it is easy enough to do

let us know how you get on

Well, I've decided to do the job myself, having very little money at the moment...

Using levemir's guide (which I am aware was written for the SPI) I have got as far as removing the cambelt. However, just out of interest I twisted the belt on it's longest run to see what it is tensioned at at the moment, and it doesn't twist anywhere near 90 degrees. (Which is what custard's cam belt guide and the Haynes cinq manual specify). In fact it barely twists at all! Is 90 degrees definitely the correct figure and am I reading this right? If so my belt is on WAAAAAY to tight, it was the FIAT dealer who changed the cambelt last so I can't see them tensioning it wrongly?

Shall I just go ahead and take off the belt, and when the time comes to refit it just do as the guides and the haynes cinq manual say? As that way the belt would be on a lot looser than it is now.

just take it off

OK, was just worried that's all

I've tried taking it off and cannot get a 13mm socket on the tensioner nut! I've tried 3 different socket sets and no combination of ratchet + socket will work. There's just not enough clearance from the bodywork! There's no way I can get enough force on the 13mm ring spanner to turn the nut at all - has anyone done this on an MPI and did you use a spanner or a socket?