General Compressor map for garrett T15

fordcosworth · Mar 19, 2008

does anyone have or now were to get a compressor map from for the Garrett T15 turbo as fitted to the turbo cinqs by VanAkeen ?? also does anyone now if they were all the exactly the same turbo's used throughout production? (vauxhall astra turbo diesel??)
cheers

garret dont list the map on there site!

fingers99 · Mar 19, 2008

This is what Google turned up. Remember that some manufacturers don't publish full maps........

The T15, GT15, has a few variants, but as far as I know the Astra van ones were all the same.

What you doing, looking for a new turbo?

fordcosworth · Mar 19, 2008

fingers99 said:
This is what Google turned up. Remember that some manufacturers don't publish full maps........

The T15, GT15, has a few variants, but as far as I know the Astra van ones were all the same.

What you doing, looking for a new turbo?[/QUOTE

thanks
no just intersted in what this turbo has to offer and how effieciently its going to work at my target bhp and what sort of boost pressure to exspect, ive never seen the map for this turbo so i can start playing with numbers,
but on the subject of turbos has anyone ever fitted a larger turbo to the cinqs? along the lines of a T2 as fitted to the fiesta rs turbo etc?
cheers

fingers99 · Mar 19, 2008

One of the Dutch guys runs an enormous IHI turbo and there are postings by him (also some videos on You Tube). Turbo1250Cinqy (maybe)? There are a few people using other ones, too. I think VAD did some with other turbos........

Brooky · Mar 19, 2008

fordcosworth said:
along the lines of a T2 as fitted to the fiesta rs turbo etc?
cheers

The one i saw last week was a tiny turbo

fordcosworth · Mar 19, 2008

Brooky said:
The one i saw last week was a tiny turbo

hhhmm yes they are small, but they have a bigger A/R than my T15 and i think they are capable of a fair bit more then the T15, whats the most anyone has got from a T15? anyone?
if i had a map i could look into it but doesnt seem to be happening

thanks

fingers99 · Mar 19, 2008

T15s are known to be good for 115bhp or so on a RR which flatters no-one with almost stock internals, standard aftermarket exhausts and the chopped down log manifold. I'd guess that there's another 10bhp "free" from a custom exhaust and a decent manifold. After that you could always toughen up the internals and up the boost.

The turbo I lust after is one of the ones off a Subaru Legacy turbo in Japanese domestic market spec: lots of titanium where it matters, roller bearing, twin spool, water cooled.

fordcosworth · Mar 19, 2008

fingers99 said:
T15s are known to be good for 115bhp or so on a RR which flatters no-one with almost stock internals, standard aftermarket exhausts and the chopped down log manifold. I'd guess that there's another 10bhp "free" from a custom exhaust and a decent manifold. After that you could always toughen up the internals and up the boost.

hhhm, 115bhp! well the main reason i ask about the map is because of future plans for the engine, for starters a place i am in contact with at the moment has said the running the currnet 0.4-0.5 bar boost,,,,120bhp is possible with my new intercooler,pump and regulator fitted and the head and inlet ported and reprofiled cam, and possibly a decomp plate (after a good set up of course)
does this sound possible at this boost level?
if i had the map i could work out a very close estimate as to were the turbo would be operting with the effiecency islands,,,,and at the same time work out a given boost pressure required to meet a target bhp figure.
this would be worked out however with an estimated VE

fingers99 · Mar 19, 2008

fordcosworth said:
hhhm, 115bhp! well the main reason i ask about the map is because of future plans for the engine, for starters a place i am in contact with at the moment has said the running the currnet 0.4-0.5 bar boost,,,,120bhp is possible with my new intercooler,pump and regulator fitted and the head and inlet ported and reprofiled cam, and possibly a decomp plate (after a good set up of course)
does this sound possible at this boost level?

I doubt it very much. Maybe on his rollers, though.

J333EVO · Mar 19, 2008

The turbo on your car is a different T15, the one you have is off a early Golf TDi, they are not interchangeable. The reason is down to orientation, as the turbo is held on by 3 studs, yours is in effect 120degress different to the Astra turbo.

I did see a manifold that had been modified to accept a T2 turbo from Italy, standard turbo modified in much the same way as the VAD ones are, only differance being the mount was much nicer as the T2 flange is a large rectangle its an almost perfect fit to the manifold that once cut at correct place is also a rectangle. Whereas the T15 has a small round opening that is offset causing poor gas flow and an area that gets very hot, the internal baffle inside the manifold that separates the ports into two i.e 1&2 3&4 eventually just breaks up due to the heat so its good to remove that. I know someone who had the misfortune off breaking a turbo because a piece of this fell into the turbo and damage the blades. So T2 better gas flow, no hot spots, probably spool up as quickly due to that.

Another benefit is that you can bolt up the turbo correctly, on the T15's unless the turbo is modified the studs eventually bend causing a leak between manifold and turbo, doesn't matter how well the car is looked after, the heat wand weight will get there in the end, so the back of turbo has to be modified flat to ensure that when its bolted up the studs remain straight, this should prolong any leaks from forming. This is because normally the turbo has the studs and its the manifold that bolted to the turbo on the factory fitted cars. The T2 by virtue of its design is meant to be bolted to a manifold so modification is needed.

T2's off R5GTT's are except from very early models, water cooled, so if fitting one you would need to look at modifying your coolant system. The good thing about T2's is they are popular and easy to get hold off as used in many many variants.

I think a T2 on a 1242 install would be fine, the R5GTT is 1397cc, so not that much bigger, and the MG Metro Turbo was a 1275cc running a much bigger T3 with only 0.5bar of boost, so it can be done.

Another thing is this, a bigger turbo flowing the same amount of boost is working less hard, so the air is not as hot meaning you make more power.

fordcosworth · Mar 19, 2008

J333EVO said:
The turbo on your car is a different T15, the one you have is off a early Golf TDi, they are not interchangeable. The reason is down to orientation, as the turbo is held on by 3 studs, yours is in effect 120degress different to the Astra turbo.

I did see a manifold that had been modified to accept a T2 turbo from Italy, standard turbo modified in much the same way as the VAD ones are, only differance being the mount was much nicer as the T2 flange is a large rectangle its an almost perfect fit to the manifold that once cut at correct place is also a rectangle. Whereas the T15 has a small round opening that is offset causing poor gas flow and an area that gets very hot, the internal baffle inside the manifold that separates the ports into two i.e 1&2 3&4 eventually just breaks up due to the heat so its good to remove that. I know someone who had the misfortune off breaking a turbo because a piece of this fell into the turbo and damage the blades. So T2 better gas flow, no hot spots, probably spool up as quickly due to that.

Another benefit is that you can bolt up the turbo correctly, on the T15's unless the turbo is modified the studs eventually bend causing a leak between manifold and turbo, doesn't matter how well the car is looked after, the heat wand weight will get there in the end, so the back of turbo has to be modified flat to ensure that when its bolted up the studs remain straight, this should prolong any leaks from forming. This is because normally the turbo has the studs and its the manifold that bolted to the turbo on the factory fitted cars. The T2 by virtue of its design is meant to be bolted to a manifold so modification is needed.

T2's off R5GTT's are except from very early models, water cooled, so if fitting one you would need to look at modifying your coolant system. The good thing about T2's is they are popular and easy to get hold off as used in many many variants.

I think a T2 on a 1242 install would be fine, the R5GTT is 1397cc, so not that much bigger, and the MG Metro Turbo was a 1275cc running a much bigger T3 with only 0.5bar of boost, so it can be done.

Another thing is this, a bigger turbo flowing the same amount of boost is working less hard, so the air is not as hot meaning you make more power.

thankyou mate, fantastic advise there very handy, it might be something to consider in the future that

,,,and yes i realize that by fitting a larger turbo it means more power at the same boost or same power at less boost while working more effieciently due to the fact that the turbo robs less power from the engine and helps with scavange on overlap etc, while maintaining lower temp gasses exiting the compressor housing due to the adiabatic effiecency of the turbo's compressor at more effiecient speeds

thankfully i passed a short course on compressor maps and turbo technology while training as a mechanic ,,,,unfortunatly i dont have any chance to use it! thats why in the near future a turbo upgrade would be a nice project but i would first like to see what the T15 operates like running between 115-125bhp to see if it will be worth upgrading or wether the T15 is still upto the job

fingers99 · Mar 19, 2008

I'd imagine that the only issue with fitting a bigger turbo (apart from installation) would be lag.

There's a place in Japan that often auctions off all sorts of interesting turbos on eBay, often with links to the maps.

fordcosworth · Mar 19, 2008

fingers99 said:
I'd imagine that the only issue with fitting a bigger turbo (apart from installation) would be lag.

There's a place in Japan that often auctions off all sorts of interesting turbos on eBay, often with links to the maps.

yes thats the big put off haha, well i surpose if the price to pay for better power and torque delivery while running at more effiecient and less harsh boost levels then it might be something to think about.
ill try and get in touch with garrett to find out if they can suppy me with any information and try and get a map from them

im thinking of having a tubular stainless manifold made up for the turbo cinq,,,,,,,very pricy i no but its getting some one who will make one first.
anyone else had thoughs of the manifold upgrade for turbo?
cheers

jamie86 · Mar 19, 2008

Yeah I was looking at getting a manifold made up but the prices are not quite what I was hoping for

The VA ones are prone to cracking and blowing

fordcosworth · Mar 19, 2008

jamie86 said:
Yeah I was looking at getting a manifold made up but the prices are not quite what I was hoping for

The VA ones are prone to cracking and blowing

arh great so youve had a price then? you mind me asking how much or where from?
and yes i heard alot of bad things about the standard one id rather upgrade to a more effiecient stainless item thats gonna last and perform better

fingers99 · Mar 19, 2008

Yep. If stainless you have to avoid 304 (the stuff almost always used in NA manis) and go for 321 or 347. 304 will just fall to bits. At the outer limits, inconel, which is almost impossible to obtain and very difficult to use.

You've also got to go thick -- 3/16 is probably a minimum.

In the states people use weld-els, as used by industrial pipe fitters/plumbers, etc. Available in tube and bends. They use schedule (grade? guage?) 40 or thicker. All TIGed together.

Later tonight I'll go on one of the welding sites and see what's what. Lots of Canadians and Americans on there.

fordcosworth · Mar 19, 2008

fingers99 said:
Yep. If stainless you have to avoid 304 (the stuff almost always used in NA manis) and go for 321 or 347. 304 will just fall to bits. At the outer limits, inconel, which is almost impossible to obtain and very difficult to use.

You've also got to go thick -- 3/16 is probably a minimum.

In the states people use weld-els, as used by industrial pipe fitters/plumbers, etc. Available in tube and bends. They use schedule (grade? guage?) 40 or thicker. All TIGed together.

Later tonight I'll go on one of the welding sites and see what's what. Lots of Canadians and Americans on there.

ow right great stuff

well i was thinking along the lines of thick walls but didnt really think about the grade of steel. obviuosly dont want to spend a fortune for it to fail on me

J333EVO · Mar 19, 2008

That's not necessarily true when it comes to grades of s/s, the thickness of the steel is very important.

I have copied and pasted some info on a integrale manifold which is of course turbo charged as standard with a big old T3 hanging from it boosting 1.2 bar standard, and upto 1.7bar in modified form that is being offered at £335 plus postage, the cheapest manifold offered for 'grale's, but rumoured to be very good, and with full money back 12 month warranty.

"Here we have a tubular manifold of the very highest standard, the manifold is made from 304 grade 38mm stainless steel tubing with 3mm walls, manifold is mandrel bent not manufactured from aftermarket off the shelf bends, which is why the bends are so smooth, both flanges are made from 10mm stainless steel and all welds are tig welded.

Mandrel Bends (for smooth exhaust gas removal to turbo)

38mm Pipes 3mm wall thickness (3mm walls to retain heat within the pipes and prevent cracking) if you are thinking about buying a manifold ask the supplier what thickness pipes they use!

Pipes enter the collector in firing order 1-3-4-2 clockwise into the collector! (This keeps the exhaust pulses as smooth as possible onto the turbine)

3mm Wall thickness collector

10mm stainless steel flanges

All 304 grade stainless steel"

fordcosworth · Mar 19, 2008

that looks like an awsome bit of kit, id love to see something like that under the bonnet of the turbo!
well im going to try a few specialist places that might do the manifold for me and i will be enquiring about the thickness of the steel as you said.
thanks again

fingers99 · Mar 19, 2008

Personally, I'd not trust it. 304 is well known for precipitating carbides when held at a high temperature: when that happens, it looses strength, and how! Does look pretty though, but I wonder if the die grinder was broken the day they took the photo: I spy danglies!

Pipes enter the collector in firing order 1-3-4-2 clockwise into the collector! (This keeps the exhaust pulses as smooth as possible onto the turbine)

Come on, it's a 4 into 1 collector into a single entry turbo. The turbo doesn't know which cylinder is firing, and doesn't care: it just wants strong, distinct, pulses, which is why dual entry is a better way to go.

General Compressor map for garrett T15

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