Can anyone advise me of FIAT's actual specification for the battery for a 2012 500C Lounge Twinair with Stop/Start. There is nothing in my handbook on the actual specs for a replacement battery and those places I have visited/rung seem totally ignorant and only too happy drop in whatever they've got to hand.

The current battery, fitted by the FIAT dealer, is not apparently a Stop/Start type, although it's performed well for three years. For this reason I'm not confident the dealer knows what they're doing either.

Should the battery required be a EFB type or should it be AGM?

Any guidance would be appreciated.

I just fed the reg. no. of my (no longer owned) 500 TA into Euro Car Parts and did a battery search. The results were four EFB types, all 60Ah. It states that the EFB is designed for s/s systems. Prices range from £158 (Lion) to £245 (Bosch). Hope this helps.
Someone on another thread (I think in the 500X forum) stated that AGM batteries weren't suited to under bonnet temperatures. I had one once in an MX-5, and that was in the boot.

I "think" this is the correct one;
https://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/car-batteries/agm-car-batteries/varta-d52.html
Check the physical dimensions
There's a discussion vs type in this recent thread
https://www.fiatforum.com/500/455189-any-things-watch-out-when-diy-battery-replacement-500-stop-go-2.html?p=4303611

TrevC said:

I just fed the reg. no. of my (no longer owned) 500 TA into Euro Car Parts and did a battery search. The results were four EFB types, all 60Ah. It states that the EFB is designed for s/s systems. Prices range from £158 (Lion) to £245 (Bosch). Hope this helps.
Someone on another thread (I think in the 500X forum) stated that AGM batteries weren't suited to under bonnet temperatures. I had one once in an MX-5, and that was in the boot.

Click to expand...

Thanks Trev. I'd buy a Varta battery if I could track a suitable one down. The temperature thing is a concern because summer temps here can reach the mid-forties, my car is black and in the confined space under the bonnet it'd be reaching oven-like proportions.

My immediate question is, does the 500 use EFB or AGM as factory fit? I'm inclined to suspect it's EFB, but a web-site I consulted said EFB is used in Japanese cars and AGM in European which sounds odd to me.

John202020 said:

I "think" this is the correct one;
https://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/car-batteries/agm-car-batteries/varta-d52.html
Check the physical dimensions
There's a discussion vs type in this recent thread
https://www.fiatforum.com/500/45518...tery-replacement-500-stop-go-2.html?p=4303611

Click to expand...

Thanks John. I've read through that thread and it's been very informative. Unfortunately the choices of replacement batteries in this country are more limited than in yours. Add to that the fact that most people at battery places (not to mention FIAT dealers) really don't know much about stop/start batteries.

I'm less concerned about cost than about getting the best battery for my car.

Piccolo Nero e Bella said:

Thanks John. I've read through that thread and it's been very informative. Unfortunately the choices of replacement batteries in this country are more limited than in yours. Add to that the fact that most people at battery places (not to mention FIAT dealers) really don't know much about stop/start batteries.

I'm less concerned about cost than about getting the best battery for my car.

Click to expand...

Google Varta battery suppliers in your country? Or once you've confirmed the correct one Google the exact specification/model number and it may show who supplies it?
You could try this contact
http://www.vartaconsumer.com.au/en-au/service-contact/contact

I did a search for AGM battery information, and went to the RAC website which explained their construction, and stated they were suitable for stop/start systems. I then followed their link to find the most suitable battery for my old 500 TA. It came up with a Bosch 60Ah EFB type 027. It did the same for the 500X I have now. As two UK websites have led me to EFB batteries (even from an area explaining AGM in the case of the RAC) it's reasonable to assume that the original fit is EFB. There is no meaningful information on the battery in my 500X, other than it's made by Exide. I haven't tried to decode the part number yet!

Here's the same one posted earlier.

http://www.batteriesdirect.com.au/shop/product/22638/560901-(d52).html

I don't know if that's the correct one, it seems a bit small going by the dimensions - so double check before you buy.

Century sell EFB's:

https://www.centurybatteries.com.au/products/iss-active/iss-active-efb-batteries

It's a shame that factory S/S won't play nice with lithium - double the performance at half the cost.

The story so far...

I had come to expect that the correct battery is an EFB type too but, trying to get positive confirmation, I called the FIAT dealer and spoke to spare parts. They were unable to say immediately what battery was spec'd for the Twinair S/S, but later rang back and told me it was an "MF55 AGM". Now 'MF55' refers to the 'Supercharge' brand that they seem to favour (and the battery they fitted to my car was indeed an MF55H, but that is not an AGM battery). I queried about the AGM type and he confirmed it was correct. A search of Supercharge's website brought up a MF55HSS which is AGM and presumably the one referred to.

I tried the Varta contact John supplied but they replied that they don't handle automotive batteries...

Another contact form brought the information that FIAT had actually used both types (EFB and AGM) around 2012(!).

This search page; http://www.batteriesdirect.com.au/shop/view/1244/ brought up several options (I used the third listed model - "500, 500C Lounge, Rockstar 0.9T") They're all AGM, so I think AGM is the way to go; perhaps the Varta despite the higher cost. If I did fit AGM and it was originally supposed to be EFB what's the worst that can happen?

I don't think it really matters very much what the exactly type they all give you 12v


Only difference is some will last longer with the added stress of start stop batteries

You're over thinking it. I've variously run my car on regular Pb, stock (whatever it was), Lithium, Supercaps etc.

If the voltage is in spec, there's nothing to worry about.

It certainly won't hurt to go a spec above what Fiat supplied OEM.

UFI said:

You're over thinking it. I've variously run my car on regular Pb, stock (whatever it was), Lithium, Supercaps etc.

If the voltage is in spec, there's nothing to worry about.

It certainly won't hurt to go a spec above what Fiat supplied OEM.

Click to expand...

You are over-simplifying things. Modern cars have much more critical battery requirements. I seriously doubt you ran a car on just Supercaps. A 60AH 12V battery is 2.5MJ or about 34,000 Farads of capacitor.


To the OP,
The correct battery is an EFB (Enhanced Flooded Battery) type. These are less critical of charge voltage and level than AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) types so are better suited to the fast charging required of stop-start. they can also accept the over voltage alternator dynamic braking used on many modern "eco" cars. AGM is also more sensitive to elevated temperatures so when used are often fitted low down in the engine bay/wheel arch or the boot.


HTH,
Robert G8RPI.

g8rpi said:

A 60AH 12V battery is 2.5MJ or about 34,000 Farads of capacitor.

Click to expand...

I'm trying to start a car, not a nuclear reactor

UFI's been running for 3 years on just a normal non-S/S battery - and S/S still works too. That's longer than I got out of the original.

Exactly it's more down to the quality of the batteries construction then the type that's why I'd Allways stick with a good brand like Bosch or varta

UFI said:

I'm trying to start a car, not a nuclear reactor

UFI's been running for 3 years on just a normal non-S/S battery - and S/S still works too. That's longer than I got out of the original.

Click to expand...

What car did you run on supercaps and what size were they?


My sum is actually optimistic for the size of capacitor required to replace a standard battery as the capacitor is assumed to go to zero volts but most bits in the car will stop at 10V. Even just cranking an engine for 3 seconds would need 200F (100A 12V to 6V).


It is true that a quality flooded battery could last longer than a poor EFB, but it also depends on the actual use. One issue with modern batteries is the drive to reduce weight and thus improve fuel consumption. Lead is heavy so reducing the amount of it that is not actively employed in the chemical reaction saves weight and cost. but it also reduces reliability. Thinner grids and connecting bars are more likely to crack, reducing capacity or causing sudden failure respectively. OEMs of low cost economy cars want the lightest cheapest battery that will last the warranty. A quality battery will weigh more and cost you in more fuel consumed, but will last longer. The replacement battery I put in the wife's Focus (Banner / Duracell) was noticeably larger and heavier than the supposedly same size (by number) and capacity failed Ford OEM one I took out.


Robert G8RPI.

[FONT=&quot]I appreciate everyone's input. I must admit that when I started this inquiry I thought it would be a straightforward matter, not the vexed question it's turned out to be.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Here are a couple of quotes from emails I received after querying a battery supplier this week;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Your vehicle is a tough one as it is right on the cross over year where both battery types were used. Also depending on the kW capacity of your engine they also had different batteries fitted from the factory.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Probably the easiest way to check is take it to your nearest Delkor stockist and they will be able to confirm this for you straight away. Both product types come in EFB & AGM so the stockist should be able to support your requirements. They will also have the correct size available once this is checked. Sorry we cannot provide an exact match, we try and do our best with the fitment information offered online but with the vehicle type and options available we may not be 100% correct.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In all likelihood from what I can tell though it is a LN1 AGM for the stop start [/FONT][FONT=&quot]optioned vehicle."

After I advised that checking the existing battery will prove nothing because it's an incorrect replacement;

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"Unfortunately you are not alone in this situation with batteries and electric systems of vehicles demanding more and if the battery is not maintained from day one the way new vehicle alternators work the battery suffers greatly. I am not sure how much you have been researched or been told, however most vehicles these days only charge the battery intermittently and when certain parameters are met, this is part of how they meet emission and energy requirements these days. I would strongly suggest depending on how you use the vehicle do not get a cheap or sub quality battery as it will not last and possibly cause damage to your electronics.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]My suggestion is go into the guys at Every Battery in Ashburton (High St by memory) and tell them you have being dealing with Guy from Johnson Controls and they will supply and fit the right battery for you. It will either be a Varta or Delkor, both are our products.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Regards,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Guy Locke[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Area Sales Manager A&NZ[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Johnson Controls Power Solutions"

So that's my next step - I'll go and talk to these people next week (I had planned on visiting them in any case) and let you know what they come up with, before I commit.

Thanks again...


[/FONT]

Piccolo Nero e Bella said:

[FONT=&quot]I appreciate everyone's input. I must admit that when I started this inquiry I thought it would be a straightforward matter, not the vexed question it's turned out to be.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

<SNIP>
So that's my next step - I'll go and talk to these people next week (I had planned on visiting them in any case) and let you know what they come up with, before I commit.

Thanks again...


[/FONT]

Click to expand...

[FONT=&quot]Hi,
If you PM me your VIN I can check for sure on ePer, but it looks like it should be Fiat part Number [/FONT][FONT=&quot]71752830 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Which is a 60AH, 450A EN2 Stop/Start EFB A good (higher CCA) branded alternative would be a[/FONT]n Exide 12V 60Ah Type 905 640CCA EFB
or Varta Blue Dynamic EFB 60AH 560A
part No. 560500056D842
Spec is

• Voltage: 12 V
• Battery Capacity: 60 Ah
• Post Positions
• Terminal Type: 1
• Hold-down Type: B13
• Length: 242 mm
• Width: 175 mm
• Height: 190 mm
• EFB

Forgot to add, That's a size code 027.

Hope this helps,
Robert G8RPI.

g8rpi said:

What car did you run on supercaps and what size were they?


My sum is actually optimistic for the size of capacitor required to replace a standard battery as the capacitor is assumed to go to zero volts but most bits in the car will stop at 10V. Even just cranking an engine for 3 seconds would need 200F (100A 12V to 6V).

Click to expand...

I run 350F caps - enough to start a 4 cyl three times (with the alt disconnected). Remember there's a world of difference between what you can sell a consumer and what you can get away with as an enthusiast. I don't recommend anyone use caps alone on a public road, but it is possible, the car will run fine, just don't use any electrical loads with the engine off..

Pb batteries are arguably the oldest tech still on a modern car - super caps are quite literally a century and a half ahead. The supercaps are currently in the Proton, backed up by a LiFe 14.4Ah. It still surprises me whenever I start it or hear it start. Even from cold it usually fires in less than half a second.

As for the EFB/AGM debate, what did Fiat change when they made the change? My bet is nothing.

Varta do a S/S 027AGM battery:

https://www.tayna.co.uk/D52-Varta-Start-Stop-Plus-027-AGM-Car-Battery-560901068-P8823.html

Brand Varta
Product Code D52
DIN 560 901 068
Range Varta Start-Stop
Voltage 12 Volts
Technology AGM
Capacity (C20) 60 Ah
CCA (EN) 680 A
Length 242 mm
Width 175 mm
Height inc. terms 190 mm
Other References 560901068
Barcode (EAN) 4016987144497

It's just a case of finding one in your country.

UFI said:

I run 350F caps - enough to start a 4 cyl three times (with the alt disconnected). Remember there's a world of difference between what you can sell a consumer and what you can get away with as an enthusiast. I don't recommend anyone use caps alone on a public road, but it is possible, the car will run fine, just don't use any electrical loads with the engine off..

Pb batteries are arguably the oldest tech still on a modern car - super caps are quite literally a century and a half ahead. The supercaps are currently in the Proton, backed up by a LiFe 14.4Ah. It still surprises me whenever I start it or hear it start. Even from cold it usually fires in less than half a second.

As for the EFB/AGM debate, what did Fiat change when they made the change? My bet is nothing.

Click to expand...

EFB's and AGMs are generally interchangeable but ideally the AGM needs closer voltage control and ideally temperature compensation of the charging voltage. Typically this is about 20mVdrop in voltage for each degree C rise in temperature. Some cars do this even with flooded batteries. As the OP is in a hot climate I'd suggest he sticks with EFB.


On the off topic Supercaps. I presume you are using 6 350F in series so about 58F, in that case 3 sub 1/2 second cranks sounds about right. You still need the LiFe for extra storage though (it's equal to 7,000F). The Supercaps are compensating for the limited peak current capability of the Lithium battery. Personally I would not use a lithium battery because of the fire hazard.


Robert G8RPI.