General Fiat 500 - Fully Automatic?

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General Fiat 500 - Fully Automatic?

Millycupcake

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Hi All *waves* newbie here!

Passed my driving test yesterday :D
I took my test in an automatic, so am only licensed to drive an automatic car.

I've been looking at the 1.2 POP. Conveniently there is a used one for sale local to me for £6700, Beige, 25000 miles.

My question is, what is the difference between fiats dualogic... and a 'proper' fully automatic small car.

Will it feel/handle different, is there anything I need to consider/worry about eg Hills etc?

Grateful for any replies

Thanks
 
If you learned in a Fiesta or Corsa, it would likely have been a 'normal' automatic.
The Fiat uses a manual gearbox and clutch, but they are operated by hydraulics by an automated control system. They feel different to drive than a conventional auto, in that as you push the gas pedal the clutch engages and as you accelerate, there will be a slight pause as the system lets go of the gas, changes the gear and re-engages the clutch. All with the gas pedal where you put it. In normal driving they work OK, but will take a little getting used to.

BSM used them for a year and they stood up well, but didn't like manoeuvring, especially reversing slowly uphill. If you have a steep drive, or other uphill reverse parking place, this may not be the best choice.

There are numerous threads on here with issues, but of course, this is only a small number of those out there, but get a warranty that covers the gearbox.

Take it for a drive, with an open mind, and on a route you'll use regularly if possible. Good luck, but if any doubts, walk away.
 
Hi All *waves* newbie here!

Passed my driving test yesterday :D
I took my test in an automatic, so am only licensed to drive an automatic car.

I've been looking at the 1.2 POP. Conveniently there is a used one for sale local to me for £6700, Beige, 25000 miles.

My question is, what is the difference between fiats dualogic... and a 'proper' fully automatic small car.

Will it feel/handle different, is there anything I need to consider/worry about eg Hills etc?

Grateful for any replies

Thanks

Hi Milly; welcome to the forum and congratulations on obtaining your licence.;)

The Dualogic is basically a manual gearbox with an electro-hydraulic control unit swapping cogs for you. It feels quite different from a 'normal' auto and needs to be handled differently in some respects. For instance, when stationary on hills you must use the handbrake or hold the brake pedal because it will roll just like a manual in neutral when you let go the accelerator. Selecting forward, neutral or reverse from a standstill always requires the brake pedal to be held down and the car simply will not respond until you do.

We have a DL Pop and I find gear changes on the move are leisurely affairs and in some circumstances, such as steep carpark ramps the box can be caught out momentarily. I think it's easier for a manual driver to adapt to the DL than an auto-only driver and I'm not sure it's an ideal system for an inexperienced driver - others may disagree.

The control unit is extremely expensive to replace and a used car should be thoroughly vetted.
 
I think the real question is ........... can a person only licenced to drive an automatic drive a dualogic?

I'm not sure they can, because it's not "automatic".

I'm willing to be proved wrong of course.

Regards,
Mick.
 
I think the real question is ........... can a person only licenced to drive an automatic drive a dualogic?

Yes, absolutely.

The following is the relevant extract from the regulations:

2. In this Order—

(a)“driving test” means a test corresponding to the practical test of driving skills and behaviour prescribed under section 89 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 as part of the test of competence to drive;

(b)“vehicle with automatic transmission” means a vehicle in which either—

(i)the driver is not provided with any means whereby he may vary the gear ratio between the engine and the road wheels independently of the accelerator and the brakes, or

(ii)he is provided with such means but they do not include a clutch pedal or lever which he may operate manually,

(and accordingly, a vehicle with manual transmission is any other class of vehicle); and

(c)a reference to a licensing category is a reference to the category identified by the same letter or combination of letters in Schedule 2 to the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999(1).

The key point in the legislation is that the absence of a manually operated clutch makes a vehicle an automatic for the purpose of the driving licencing regulations.

Interestingly this means that three pedal cars fitted with a Wilson gearbox are regarded as 'automatics', since the third pedal is a gear change pedal, not a clutch; they can be driven by someone with only an automatic licence, and passing your test in one would not get you an unrestricted car licence.

The following extract is from the instructions issued to driving test examiners:

6.8 VEHICLES WITH AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
A vehicle with automatic transmission is defined in regulations as `A vehicle in which the gear ratio between the engine and the wheels can be varied only by the use of the accelerator or brakes'. In general a vehicle without a manual clutch is regarded as an automatic.

The following points of driving technique are common to all automatic systems:

HANDBRAKE
The handbrake should be applied for temporary stops, e.g. waiting at a red traffic light, a junction, or in a traffic hold-up, if they are likely to be of a long duration
Short stops may not require the application of the handbrake
The handbrake may need to be applied to prevent `creep'
Faults committed in these cases should be recorded at Handbrake

FOOTBRAKE AND ACCELERATOR
The use of the right foot for both brake and accelerator pedals has considerable safety advantages. It is therefore recommended practice for normal driving, but is not necessarily applicable to disabled drivers. The use of the left foot on the brake pedal should not however be marked as a fault unless it involves the use of the footbrake against the accelerator
The use of both feet when manoeuvring in a confined space is acceptable if carried out correctly, i.e. speed is properly adjusted so that no large throttle opening or heavy braking pressures are involved.
Any fault should be recorded at footbrake and/or Accelerator, or in the 'control' box if it occurs in the reversing, reverse parking, or turn in the road exercise

6.9 PARTICULAR DRIVING SYSTEMS

FULLY AUTOMATIC SYSTEM
This type has selector settings for forward and reverse, neutral and/or park. It also has settings which enable the driver to select and retain a particular gear ratio or range of gear ratios, e.g. to obtain engine braking when descending a steep hill, although gear changes are normally made automatically. Most automatics of this type enable the driver to make an immediate change into the lower gear, to obtain extra acceleration, by means of `kick down' or part throttle operation actuated by the accelerator pedal. In nearly all cases the selector lever is mounted on the floor or the steering column in the position normally occupied by the gear lever, but there are exceptions, e.g. a panel of press buttons on the facia.

SEMI-AUTOMATIC SYSTEMS
With these the driver has to select the gear required by movement of the gear lever as with a manually controlled gearbox, but there is no clutch pedal. For driving test and licensing purposes these vehicles are regarded as automatics.

PRE-SELECTOR SYSTEMS
In these the gear is selected, before it is required, by manual movement of a selector lever, which is normally mounted on the steering column. When required, the gear is engaged by a single depression and release of the gear-change pedal, which is situated where the clutch pedal would be on an orthodox transmission.
 
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I shall add my opinions to Piccolo's excellent summary:

The Dualogic selector has the gear up/gear down lever as the primary function. 'Auto' (not called 'D') mode engagement is a secondary function. It is not the same as a standard automatic selector, which has D (Drive) as the primary function and gear up/down as secondary functions.

This difference pretty much summarises the whole Dualogic experience. You will get better results treating it as a manual - tell it when to change up gears, and it works efficiently. I get smooth results better than I would with a regular manual - no chance of stalling, no need to change down when coming to a stop (it always does that for you). Switch off the engine and it's parked in gear, which is nice too.

With a 1.4 engine, it's worth pointing out that there are two modes - one mode gives smoother, slower gearchanges by backing off the engine power, while the Sport mode gives a faster but more noticeable gearchange as the engine power is not reduced as much. I drive in Sport mode all the time, as the engine feels much more responsive this way. In New Zealand, the Pop model came with a 1.4 engine until recently - with a 1.2, there won't be the benefit of the Sport button and so I can understand what Piccolo means about the 'leisurely' gearchanges.

'Auto' mode is best thought of as a novelty and is unlikely to satisfy the driver who wants a standard automatic experience of never having to select a gear. They will instead feel the Dualogic shifting noticeably between gears as it tries to guess what's best for the conditions.

However, it has to be said that conventional automatic transmissions attached to small engines are often caught out in difficult conditions such as hills, corners, speeding up and slowing down - where they are likely to feel hesitant. Manually overriding the automatic may help, but often doesn't (a delay in response or a large gap between ratios being typical problems). There is also a performance and fuel economy penalty with a standard automatic transmission due to the 'slip' introduced for smoothness. One type known as CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) takes some time to change ratios (moving the belt across pulleys takes time, a bit like bicycle gears where the chain moves across sprockets). Therefore, CVTs in particular feel quite lethargic when moving off and there is nothing you can do about it.

I really like my Dualogic - but here's my unbiased advice: take both the Dualogic and other small automatic cars for a test drive - make sure your test includes slow-speed city driving and medium-speed B-road driving with corners and hills. Motorway driving is less important to test, as any transmission will simply be in its highest gear, though you might consider the pickup during overtaking to be important (does it change down correctly to ensure safe overtaking?)

I'm inclined to agree with Portland Bill on this one; once you've driven both, you'll know quickly which one suits your needs. One will seem to be faithfully in tune with your driving, while the other will be working against you. You'll decide which the Dualogic is :)

Also, when reading about the FIAT 500, remember that models sold in the USA have a conventional automatic transmission not available in Europe.

-Alex
 
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Just being a little pedantic here ...........
6.8 VEHICLES WITH AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
A vehicle with automatic transmission is defined in regulations as `A vehicle in which the gear ratio between the engine and the wheels can be varied only by the use of the accelerator or brakes'. In general a vehicle without a manual clutch is regarded as an automatic.
With dualogic, you can change gear manually if you want.

The rules don't cover the dualogic specifically.

Cheers,
Mick.
 
Just being a little pedantic here ........... With dualogic, you can change gear manually if you want.

The rules don't cover the dualogic specifically.

You can change gear manually in just about any automatic!

Dualogic meets that requirement you highlighted, because if you put Dualogic into its Auto mode, the gear ratio "can be" varied by using only the accelerator and the brake. It can also be varied by other means, but the important thing is that it "can be" varied by using "only" those controls.

I can see why you raised this point, as the wording is poor. You're reading "can only be" and I'm reading "can be only... (or can be something else)".

Section 2b (ii) applies, anyway.

-Alex
 
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Ok.
I was wrong. (y)

I did say I was willing to be proved wrong.

Thanks,
Mick.

Well, you were proved right because the wording is wrong :)

I think it should say "by using the accelerator or brake pedal alone" - it should not use the word "only" as that implies no other control is possible and is open to the interpretation you made.

This discussion probably looks quite daunting to our new member, sorry :eek: - I hope Milly has all the answers that she was looking for... and hopefully she can see that we do get on amicably with each other in this forum (y)

-Alex
 
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Wow,

thanks for all the thorough replies guys!

Unfortunately it seems a fiat 500 may not be for me then... although I am technically 'allowed' to drive it... it sounds like its probably not the best route for me to go.

I learnt and took my test in an auto (2014 Corsa I think) because I'm not a natural driver, I found gears etc very difficult and my coordination is not great. I just want to make it as easy as possible for me to get to work in the next town and back!

Such a shame because both the beige and mint ones are just too gorgeous!

Back to the drawing board! my other half has been looking into which are the smallest fully automatic cars currently, and I'm now thinking a 'Smart for 2' (2014 or later) or a Toyota IQ.


From reading your replies I've also realised test driving anything may be an issue though... not sure I want my first drive without dual controls/my instructor to be a test drive :/

Eeeeeeeppp!
 
Wow,

thanks for all the thorough replies guys!

Unfortunately it seems a fiat 500 may not be for me then... although I am technically 'allowed' to drive it... it sounds like its probably not the best route for me to go.

I learnt and took my test in an auto (2014 Corsa I think) because I'm not a natural driver, I found gears etc very difficult and my coordination is not great. I just want to make it as easy as possible for me to get to work in the next town and back!

Such a shame because both the beige and mint ones are just too gorgeous!

Back to the drawing board! my other half has been looking into which are the smallest fully automatic cars currently, and I'm now thinking a 'Smart for 2' (2014 or later) or a Toyota IQ.


From reading your replies I've also realised test driving anything may be an issue though... not sure I want my first drive without dual controls/my instructor to be a test drive :/

Eeeeeeeppp!

The Smart ForTwo is also semi automatic just like the dualogic Fiat 500.
As far as I know the iQ is manual.

I have personal experience with a Smart Fortwo and it is not great. Poor quality car from the germans... Premium price for quite frankly a crappy car.
 
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Back to the drawing board! my other half has been looking into which are the smallest fully automatic cars currently, and I'm now thinking a 'Smart for 2' (2014 or later) or a Toyota IQ.

Sadly there aren't many decent automatic city cars; one of the best regarded is the Hyundai i10.

Grab a nice comfy chair & google "small automatic car". The results make interesting reading.
 
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Obligatory Suzuki Plug: All generations of the swift have a "proper", conventional torque convertor automatic gearbox (like the Corsa had) available. I think the Splash/Vauxhall Agila also was a torque convertor, and I'm fairly sure the alto's was too.

Older Toyota Yaris' also were torque convertor- my late grandfather had one and said it was the best car he'd ever had.

Looking at Suzuki's approved used scheme your budget should see you into a top-spec 12 plate swift with under 40k on the clock. Looks like they've got a load of ex-motability (3 years old, very low <20k mileage) ones in too.
 
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Don`t be put off, have an extended test drive before deciding against this car. We have now had 2 of them and they are a doddle to get on with and we live in rather hilly N.Wales. Thought of changing to an I10 just for the 4 doors but it is sooooooo boring. Might last forever but who ever would want it to !! Whatever you get have many years of happy, safe motoring.
 
Wow,

thanks for all the thorough replies guys!

Unfortunately it seems a fiat 500 may not be for me then... although I am technically 'allowed' to drive it... it sounds like its probably not the best route for me to go.

I learnt and took my test in an auto (2014 Corsa I think) because I'm not a natural driver, I found gears etc very difficult and my coordination is not great. I just want to make it as easy as possible for me to get to work in the next town and back!

Such a shame because both the beige and mint ones are just too gorgeous!

Back to the drawing board! my other half has been looking into which are the smallest fully automatic cars currently, and I'm now thinking a 'Smart for 2' (2014 or later) or a Toyota IQ.


From reading your replies I've also realised test driving anything may be an issue though... not sure I want my first drive without dual controls/my instructor to be a test drive :/

Eeeeeeeppp!

What's Your budget for a new car?
 
Looking at Suzuki's approved used scheme your budget should see you into a top-spec 12 plate swift with under 40k on the clock. Looks like they've got a load of ex-motability (3 years old, very low <20k mileage) ones in too.

It saddens me to say it (this is a Fiat forum after all), but for a new, inexperienced driver buying and running a used small automatic, either the Swift or i10 will be a much, much safer bet than anything out of the Fiat stable (and better than most of the other robotised automatics, too).

A conventional automatic with a torque converter is, IMO, the best choice for Milly; the only real downside is it will use a little more fuel, and cost a little more to tax.

If that saves an expensive repair or, worse still, an accident through unfamiliarity, then it's money well spent.
 
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