Bear in mind the jittery cold be the esse esse suspension upgrade. With the "normal" Abarth suspension that might have been a decent combination?

ahmett said:

Supposedly the TC and Hill Holder on the 1.4 also ruins the brake pads which is why i had to change my rear pads at the first 18k service while the fronts were fine. One question, why are the rear pads so much thinner than the front? Cant they just be the same and last much longer as a result?

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I very much doubt that the TC & HH caused your rear brake pads to wear out before the fronts. A problem that I had was sticky rear calipers - a good clean & de-glaze resolved this problem. I bet your car would squeel when you were reversing.

jnoiles said:

I'm not convinced. There is a commonly held belief that the 6 speed as fitted the 500 will melt into a pile of lava if you put a touch more torque through it. Everyone says this and I'm yet to meet anyone who has actually suffered it. The closest I could come was a guy at a Fiat garage who had lost a diff to the power. This seems to be the weak point. The Fiat powertrain site seems to indicate that the 6 speed could take the torque but not a whole lot more. It's probably a safety margin thing for Fiat. If it's borderline you're likely to get more warranty claims. And also the 5 speed might have better ratios for boosted engines.

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The figures that are given for the 6 speed on the F500 is 160Nm. (Click here). URL no longer works but when it did that was figure that I dragged off the Fiat powertrain site. The A500 engine is producing 230Nm in Sport mode which exceeds the torque rating, You might get away with it but on a previous car that I had - I had to inhibit the boost in first gear to save the gearbox (I have a switch for either 8lbs or 15lbs of boost on a BBR Phase II RS CVH Turbo). I had the gearbox re-built at 50K but it still proved troublesome. Click here for another input. On the 5 speed on the 207GTI the 'overboost' function only works on 3rd gear upwards. I was under the impression that 130bhp was the maximum for the F500 1.4 but as pointed on the thread (Boost boost...) torque is the killer (Maxi).
So in summary if you were going to fit the A500 engine you would need the 5 speed gearbox to go with it plus as you mentioned the ratios would be better suited for it.

jnoiles said:

Lol.

You can put a sportier map on the 1.4 but its a bit of a faff really. You need to pull the ECU and solder a couple of connectors to allow you to write to it. Example below is mine with a before and after remap on a 1.4 (with a new induction kit as well)

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I tried to get a GSR Induction kit off Peter last November (the same as yours) and offered to pay in full for it and wherever happened Peter wouldn't give me his details so that I couldn't transfer the payment. Despite the warnings of his kit sucking in water IMHO a home kit equivalent is probably the best £ per BHP spend that you can do on a 1.4

ECU remap - Didn't know about all that soldering. I was lead to believe by Nuova that a simple ECU swop was all that you had to do for a re-map. Understand that the recommended 'best' option is to have a re-map done in situ on the 'rollers'.

jnoiles said:

...I dunno. If I was a remap away from a decent chunk of power I'd be very tempted to go for it. The chassis would be a little overwhelmed by anything over the standard Abarth power and toque ratings but that can be a lot of fun

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Standard Abarth 500 churns out 145bhp at a boost setting of 0.9bar
esseesse Abarth 500 churns out 158bhp at a boost setting of 1.2bar

That's a lot of an extra boost for just 15bhp which shows that the IHI turbo is maxed out. The only reason that I had considered the A500 esseesse is because I like the wheels and that I would be tempted to TMC the standard and mess up the insurance. Insurance on a A500 SS is relatively easy but on A500 + TMC is difficult since it falls into the modified category - assessor referral.

amen said:

I drove an essesse today, honestly didnt like it! Car was stock but felt very jiterry, as if a trade of existed between hp and handling. Like RobW said I'd prefer the 135!
Aside from shocks and springs, does the A500 have bigger sway bars than the F500?
And if so can the F500 accomodate these bars?

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I've driven 2 esseesses (last one was probably knackered) and I got the impression that the only way the 'red' springs work is with the more 'comfort' orientated Koni FSD shocks. (c. £600-£700). For most people the standard setup is preferable.

jnoiles said:

Bear in mind the jittery cold be the esse esse suspension upgrade. With the "normal" Abarth suspension that might have been a decent combination?

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:yeahthat:

jnoiles said:

For what its worth I've considered this because I really really don't like the body kits, wheels and look-at-me silliness that comes with an Abarth 500 but I'd like a bit more kick

The other viable option if you want some more power is supercharging. It would suit the gearbox better with its more linear delivery. You'd also have a lot less manifold and ECU grief. If you sacrificed the air con, the smaller rotex would fit nicely in the housing

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:yeahthat:
not economically viable but preferable to a engine & gearbox transplant

A relevant thread...(note lessons to be learned on DIY)
https://www.fiatforum.com/500/285658-boost-boost.html

Preferred supplier and it does work (estimate the cost @ around £3K + headaches)
https://www.fiatforum.com/500/286456-4-x-4-fiat-500-a-4.html?p=2900186

jnoiles said:

Bear in mind the jittery cold be the esse esse suspension upgrade. With the "normal" Abarth suspension that might have been a decent combination?

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This was a used car which was up 4 sale. Apparently it was half an ss! IOW the owner only had ecu and bmc installed, and not the suspension and rims! I dont think this is possible; is it?

amen said:

This was a used car which was up 4 sale. Apparently it was half an ss! IOW the owner only had ecu and bmc installed, and not the suspension and rims! I dont think this is possible; is it?

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The BMC filter - that's no big deal - a lot of 500 drivers upgrade to this - an easy pessy one.
ECU - if this was 'changed' then that's a re-map => warranty is blown. The TMC was the preferred option since the car can be reverted to standard by unplugging it. Even if one goes back to 'reverse' the above mapping Fiat will know that it has been done.
Also there is no such thing as 'half' an essesse. A proper essesse has an extra piece of paper to show that it's an authentic upgrade. The best part of the esseesse upgrade is the wheels - these lighter 17s are so much better 'in the hand' than the petals and in particular the multispokes which feel a bit heavy. The standard 16s do not really have the footprint to keep the power on the tarmac but are an excellent wheel for a set of winter tyres if winter ever returns again to us.
I reckon if you are in the market for a A500 it will take a lot of hunting for a decent one. If you remember an earlier post that you made - you said that you would 'modify the f*** out of it'. Unfortunately you've buying a car from someone who is a bit like yourself.

loveshandbags said:

I tried to get a GSR Induction kit off Peter last November (the same as yours) and offered to pay in full for it and wherever happened Peter wouldn't give me his details so that I couldn't transfer the payment. Despite the warnings of his kit sucking in water IMHO a home kit equivalent is probably the best £ per BHP spend that you can do on a 1.4

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<insert sympathetic noises here>

He's....quirky to deal with. I agree though. Were I going to do it again I'd probably buy a big length of silicone hose, a sharp knife and some ally joints and a cone filter. And the water thing is only because of the mounting. It's easy to avoid deep puddles

loveshandbags said:

ECU remap - Didn't know about all that soldering. I was lead to believe by Nuova that a simple ECU swop was all that you had to do for a re-map. Understand that the recommended 'best' option is to have a re-map done in situ on the 'rollers'.

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That's how mine was done. Couple of runs on the rollers, pull the ECU, solder the connector so we can write to it (think old 3.5" floppy, you've got that RW/RO tab) and then map it on the rollers. I'm sure there are other off the shelf ones that have a generic map that was presumably done with a car on the rollers at some point then blasted to the production line chips for sale in kits. Each to their own. If I were doing it again I'd go the way I went. Actually, technically speaking I am about to do it again. I've got a 1.4 from a 500 that's brand spanking new going in a race car with a standalone ECU. I'll be very interested to see what it makes on the rollers when its mapped.

loveshandbags said:

I very much doubt that the TC & HH caused your rear brake pads to wear out before the fronts. A problem that I had was sticky rear calipers - a good clean & de-glaze resolved this problem. I bet your car would squeel when you were reversing.

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Be interesting to see pics of the rears.

loveshandbags said:

The figures that are given for the 6 speed on the F500 is 160Nm. (Click here). URL no longer works but when it did that was figure that I dragged off the Fiat powertrain site.

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Interesting. I seem to remember reading the powertrain site and reading that the box was good for 195nm. I can't seem to find it now so maybe I misread it at the time? I remember thinking at the time that it was borderline that it would cope with the A500 torque. Odd. I stand corrected. But if you're going for a t-jet transplant, a gearbox isn't that hard to come by.

This is Ahmett's thread where he had a pic of his pads - I noticed that he gave 'Traction control' as a reason for them wearing out prematurely...
https://www.fiatforum.com/500/281361-sos-rear-brake-pads.html?p=2853370

Re the home made GSR equivalent CAI a contributor on the Autoitalia forum gave me all the measurements etc. if anyone wants it don't be afraid to 'put your hand up' - either one of us would be only to happy to oblige.

Re the powertrain figure I couldn't find it as well so it would be better if your figure of 195Nm was correct - hopefully someone else will find the actual figure since it has got harder to find data in there now. The 6 speed gearbox on the 1.4 is a gem and really suits the NA engine.

You are probably restricted as to what you can do with your 1368cc for track use but TBH I'm surprised that no one has put a 1.6L engine into the F500 or bored out the 1.4 engine. It's unlikely that a bigger engine (a 1.6) with all the emission focus would not do any good for increasing the sales figures of the 500 but surely there would a quiet following out there for a NA engine setup given the difficulties in fitting a T-jet into the 500 and the torque impact on the drivetrain. Plus for the modders out there the changes wouldn't be so obvious :idea:. The new Multi-air isn't giving much difference to the bhp over the standard FIRE engine - it is only when it's turbo charged do the differences become magnified.

loveshandbags said:

but surely there would a quiet following out there for a NA engine setup given the difficulties in fitting a T-jet into the 500 and the torque impact on the drivetrain.

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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ALFA-ROME...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item20c0959f2a



On a serious note, I wonder how close to fitting you could get that without major surgery?

jnoiles said:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ALFA-ROMEO-147-2-0L-ENGINE-2002-YEAR-63000-/140669984554?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item20c0959f2a



On a serious note, I wonder how close to fitting you could get that without major surgery?

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Nice looking engine with IIRC 150bhp. THe OH had the 1.6 but for the 120bhp it did well to average 25mpg.

Had a little look around for a 1.6 Fiat petrol engine and they don't have one anymore. The last time one was made in this size was in 2003. (wiki)
The Mini developed a [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_engine"]Prince engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] for themselves after discontinuing the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritec_engine"]Tritec engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]. Should I dare mention putting a MINI engine in a F500 . It has 120bhp. If anyone remembers the RS2000 the rally guys put the Vauxhall engine into them because it was too expensive to get a blueprint Ford engine. If Fiat allowed their 1.2 engine to go into a Ka then I really don't see a 'problem'. Unless they can squeeze more of the Multi-air 1.4 without fitting a turbo.
This 1.6 produces 138bhp but doesn't sound all that good.
http://thekoreancarblog.com/2011/12/hyundai-16-gdi-engine-named-wards-10-engines-list/

Sorry about resurrecting this thread. Clearing done a rake of Topgear links in facebook and I found a link that I thought would be of relevance.

There was somone on here looking for a suggestion on a Fiat for 4 people with luggage and a Multilpa was 'put forward'. Checking the specs on a 2009 this came with a choice of a MJ 1.9L or a Euro III 1.6 petrol.

Now I love the acceleration in the T-jet and the boost is addicitive and is great for overtaking - but you wanted something a little 'old school' then CC can still work.

IMHO these figures are very impressive...
1.6 NA engine. 134bhp. 147grs/km (Click here)

There would be a demand for an engine like that in a Fiat 500.