the hobbler
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Ian, did your "air-flow splitter" come with the fan housing or did you have to get it separately? I will have to obtain one, or make one!
Technical 704cc 'HOT' Engine Build
- Thread starter Bleeding Knuckles
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Technical 704cc 'HOT' Engine Build
OP
OP
Evening Tom, The 'splitter' came as part of the assembly I'm afraid. I can take multiple photos and measurements if you wish??? Let me know if you need these???
Ian.
Bigvtwin996
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Been after one of those setups if you see another....
Think I may join the "Modding" group...
OP
OP
The "Modding" Group :slayer::slayer::slayer:
is free to join and is made up of a select membership of 'Idiots' who like to change things for the sake of it
Regarding the fan housing, I was lucky that it came with a load of bits. I would think that the European (German mainly) shops could obtain one for you, otherwise keep a sharp eye on Ebay
Ian.
OP
OP
Eureka !!!!! It's complete !!!!
The Bambino fan housing is finally together - and no rubbing, the fan is free to turn - Result!! But, what a job - I don't want or need to do that again as it would be self flagellation
I have found that there is a particular way to getting it together whilst minimising the number of times it needs to come apart for "adjustment" Due to the number of odd parts the alternator was fitted first as the mounting is fixed with no adjustment apart from removing the location studs.
Prior to this careful shimming of the fan onto the alternator shaft was needed to maintain fan to housing clearance on the rear half. Then the main rear housing bolts were fitted (after adjustment) and left loose. The airflow 'splitter' within the housing was initially only held loosely by two bolts, but it's positioning into the head slot cannot be adjusted. All of the rear half bolts are then tightened in turn with a check for fan clearance after each bolt.
Then the front half of the housing is fitted using the main large bolts and remaining splitter bolts, with little wriggle room you will find at this point that the small bolts around the circumference will not fit until any adjustment and then tightening of the main mount bolts takes place, again testing for a free fan. Finally the circumference bolts are fitted starting at the bottom initially left loose and then tightened from the bottom one by one. All in all it's a pain, getting all 22 bolts to fit, but the only way I found to get it on successfully and keeping the fan free.
I then finished off with the side plates and fitted the Weber carb and linkage, with a bit of luck it should be back in the car for a test run by the end of the month.............maybe !!!!!
I hope to get back to the 'Hot' engine when this one is running and keep it as a spare..............Maybe !!!!!
Ian.
The Bambino fan housing is finally together - and no rubbing, the fan is free to turn - Result!!
But, what a job - I don't want or need to do that again as it would be self flagellation I have found that there is a particular way to getting it together whilst minimising the number of times it needs to come apart for "adjustment"
Due to the number of odd parts the alternator was fitted first as the mounting is fixed with no adjustment apart from removing the location studs.Prior to this careful shimming of the fan onto the alternator shaft was needed to maintain fan to housing clearance on the rear half. Then the main rear housing bolts were fitted (after adjustment) and left loose. The airflow 'splitter' within the housing was initially only held loosely by two bolts, but it's positioning into the head slot cannot be adjusted. All of the rear half bolts are then tightened in turn with a check for fan clearance after each bolt.
Then the front half of the housing is fitted using the main large bolts and remaining splitter bolts, with little wriggle room you will find at this point that the small bolts around the circumference will not fit until any adjustment and then tightening of the main mount bolts takes place, again testing for a free fan. Finally the circumference bolts are fitted starting at the bottom initially left loose and then tightened from the bottom one by one. All in all it's a pain, getting all 22 bolts to fit, but the only way I found to get it on successfully and keeping the fan free.
I then finished off with the side plates and fitted the Weber carb and linkage, with a bit of luck it should be back in the car for a test run by the end of the month.............maybe !!!!!
I hope to get back to the 'Hot' engine when this one is running and keep it as a spare..............Maybe !!!!!
Ian.
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Bigvtwin996
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Ohh I do keep an eye on ebay..,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Regarding the fan housing, I was lucky that it came with a load of bits. I would think that the European (German mainly) shops could obtain one for you, otherwise keep a sharp eye on Ebay
Ian.
I believe they were a German 126 only part....
It is “Gebläsekasten Eckkopf”
The shops say just keep an eye on what we have...
OP
OP
Iv'e just had to 'translate' that and it comes out as - "Blower box corner head"
now I know why after all the faffing around my head does feel like it's in a draughty box round the corner - I shall have to go and retrieve it!!:devil::devil::devil::devil:
Ian.
OP
OP
Greetings, Well, it's done, after all the Faffing around with the fan housing the 'other' Not so Hot engine is complete with it's Bambino housing and Panda thermostat housing (my pile of bits is getting smaller)
After the engine threw out a core plug I've tried to use different bits from my pile to complete the rebuild. It will be running with a Weber 30 DGF carb and a smaller sport exhaust, so the past rolling road figures will be best I could expect and possibly no more than 30bhp (ish) Those with sharp eyes will notice the 'Mod' on the fuel pump mount, this is a simple home made return for the rocker box breather (the pipe is enroute) Anyway I'll slap it on and get it running and then get back to the original thread subject of the Fully balanced "HOT" engine - no peace for the wicked :devil::devil::devil:
Ian.
After the engine threw out a core plug I've tried to use different bits from my pile to complete the rebuild. It will be running with a Weber 30 DGF carb and a smaller sport exhaust, so the past rolling road figures will be best I could expect and possibly no more than 30bhp (ish) Those with sharp eyes will notice the 'Mod' on the fuel pump mount, this is a simple home made return for the rocker box breather (the pipe is enroute) Anyway I'll slap it on and get it running and then get back to the original thread subject of the Fully balanced "HOT" engine - no peace for the wicked :devil::devil::devil:
Ian.
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OP
OP
Update on things, the 'Not so hot' engine continues to run well, but you can tell that the Carb and Exhaust are different from the original build - there is less 'GO' about it !!! The upper pushrod tubes do not leak but one of the old lower ones does so I'll have to replace them eventually. I have been messing around with other parts from my collection and found a late model 126 timing case with pump that can go onto the not so hot engine ( I don't want to keep changing the pump over every time I change the engine!!) - or that was the plan until the fly landed in the ointment I found that although the later helical gear pump worked well the rear mounting had short studs fitted for the later crossmember mount. And that's the problem as I have the early mount on the 'Hot' engine and car - So all you engineer types - your starter for ten - How does one remove Stubborn Studs in 10mm with only some 19mm showing to work with ?????
I have tried the old two nut method and that did not work, even with them on tight - answers on a post......................... Help
Ian.
The upper pushrod tubes do not leak but one of the old lower ones does so I'll have to replace them eventually. I have been messing around with other parts from my collection and found a late model 126 timing case with pump that can go onto the not so hot engine ( I don't want to keep changing the pump over every time I change the engine!!) - or that was the plan until the fly landed in the ointment I found that although the later helical gear pump worked well the rear mounting had short studs fitted for the later crossmember mount. And that's the problem as I have the early mount on the 'Hot' engine and car - So all you engineer types - your starter for ten - How does one remove Stubborn Studs in 10mm with only some 19mm showing to work with ????? I have tried the old two nut method and that did not work, even with them on tight - answers on a post......................... Help
Ian.
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Apply some release fluid top and bottom of stud, let it soak. Use gentle heat on the ally casting, hot air gun or flame. Ally expands more than steel. If you can bolt it to a crankcase it will support the casting. Use the two nuts method as the threads look perfect and push towards the crankcase, not away.
IanEmery
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the hobbler
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The main problem with this style of stud extractor is that it completely buggers up the thread making it totally unuseable in the future (should it be required) What might be a better option is the stud remover that 'Machine Mart' sells. I believe that it uses vertical pins to hold on to the stud. I have used it very successfully for removing head studs on engines ranging from Lamborghini V12 to Fiat 500. The Part number is:--040213986 It costs about £24 inc VAT.
I agree, this type of stud remover tends to do little or no damage, but best to fit it so that the working parts (small rollers) are as low as possible on the stud i.e. away from the portion of thread that will needed if the stud is re-used.
The type of stud remover that 'IanEmery' shows above might be ok if fitted low down on the stud thread, this way any damage caused might be clear of the section of thread needed if the stud is re-used in the future. Be careful if using this type of stud remover on small studs e.g. 6mmor less, it's possible to bend these.
Re: using the old 2 nuts locked together to remove a stud. One trick I've learned is not to just lock the 2 nuts together and apply a spanner/wrench on the lower nut (I presume you did put the spanner on the lower nut and not the upper one..) but to lock the 2 nuts together really tightly, then hold the upper nut stationary with one spanner while applying a loosening force to the lower nut with another spanner, until you feel the stud wanting to turn/unscrew at the upper spanner.
Other ways of removing the studs if you're sure you won't be re-using them:-
1) Visegrips
2) Stillsons type pipe wrench (very effective if used correctly)
3) Fit a nut, place a tack weld on the nut/stud, unscrew the stud and nut with a spanner/socket.
But, before adopting any of these methods, as a 1st step, I'd agree with Toshi 975's advice to use releasing fluid, patience and a little gentle heat - this usually works and doesn't ruin anything. His idea for supporting the casing is spot-on (imho).
Al.
the hobbler
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I also was taught the technique of holding the 2 spanner together when trying to undo a stud using the '2-nut' system---arranging the spanners so that as you undo the lower nut you are still keeping 'locking' tension with the upper nut. And yes, I would also agree that my 1st method to try would be to heat the t/c cover with it ON the engine, secured by as many of the screws as possible (and especially the 2 big bolts) having first of all soaked it in releasing agent (diesel is a very good one). The use of stud extractors must be regarded as 'last resort'
Another possibility, if you have access to one, is to use an *impact wrench (air or electric) and socket on the 2 locked-together nuts, just need to tighten the 2 nuts so that they align to allow the socket to fit over both of them.
* I didn't have one of these back in my 'heyday'. I used to just tap the top of the stud with a hammer while applying some pressure to the spanner on the lower nut.
I agree with 'the hobbler' about using diesel as a penetrant, very effective, probably as good as anything that comes in a can and much cheaper (I like cheap )
As others have said, please be careful about supporting the casing to avoid causing any damage.
Al.
* I didn't have one of these back in my 'heyday'. I used to just tap the top of the stud with a hammer while applying some pressure to the spanner on the lower nut.
I agree with 'the hobbler' about using diesel as a penetrant, very effective, probably as good as anything that comes in a can and much cheaper (I like cheap
)As others have said, please be careful about supporting the casing to avoid causing any damage.
Al.
OP
OP
Well, knowing my luck I'll bugger up the casing.................. So I'm going to investigate the differing rear mount on the later 500 (Anyone got a schematic of the late mount parts and crossmember) ???? and if that seems beyond reason I'll fall back on an earlier timing casing and pump
Some things are never easy :bang::bang::bang:Ian.
OP
OP
Greetings, I finally got round to removing the 'Not so hot' engine from the car today after a great run around the local countryside yesterday in the sunshine.
The removal went well and I now have the ability to progress the studs on the replacement timing cover (I now have two engines in my man cave to work on!)
Anyway after the removal I happened to notice something unusual about the thrust bearing in that the bearing carrier had removed itself and the said bearing was hanging on the input shaft Further investigation found the carrier clips had broken allowing the bearing to drop off - bugger !!!! There was also witness marks on the clutch pressure plate fingers When driving there was no indication of any failure and I suppose the assembly was kept together by the unit as a whole until removal. The broken part was from Valeo and was replaced when I upgraded my gearbox not so long ago, no other damage visible so it's keep calm and replace
Ian.
The removal went well and I now have the ability to progress the studs on the replacement timing cover (I now have two engines in my man cave to work on!)
Anyway after the removal I happened to notice something unusual about the thrust bearing in that the bearing carrier had removed itself and the said bearing was hanging on the input shaft
Further investigation found the carrier clips had broken allowing the bearing to drop off - bugger !!!! There was also witness marks on the clutch pressure plate fingers When driving there was no indication of any failure and I suppose the assembly was kept together by the unit as a whole until removal. The broken part was from Valeo and was replaced when I upgraded my gearbox not so long ago, no other damage visible so it's keep calm and replace Ian.
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Well, knowing my luck I'll bugger up the casing.................. So I'm going to investigate the differing rear mount on the later 500 (Anyone got a schematic of the late mount parts and crossmember) ???? and if that seems beyond reason I'll fall back on an earlier timing casing and pump
Ian.
Ian, I have a spare engine with a 126 mounting complete, which I removed today to show you the setup. As an aside, I then had a go at the studs you're struggling with because they will eventually need to be removed for the same reason. The engine has been lying around for years so a good test. I can assure you that despite initially giving you the feeling they won't move, by doing it as Dave described and using a length of pipe over the spanner to avoid suddenly jarring the stud, it moved without drama...in fact they both came out easily.
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One thing that can cause premature release bearing failure is not having sufficient free play in the cable/release arm - this means that the release bearing is spinning all the time instead of only when the clutch pedal is depressed.
On some Fiat models, it's possible to remove a dust shield under the bellhousing and look up at the clutch release bearing to check if there's a tiny gap (just enough to avoid it being driven all the time) between it and the pressure plate fingers after the clutch cable has been adjusted.
Did the release bearing seize or become tight causing the bearing carrier to fail?
Al.
On some Fiat models, it's possible to remove a dust shield under the bellhousing and look up at the clutch release bearing to check if there's a tiny gap (just enough to avoid it being driven all the time) between it and the pressure plate fingers after the clutch cable has been adjusted.
Did the release bearing seize or become tight causing the bearing carrier to fail?
Al.
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OP
OP
Ian, I have a spare engine with a 126 mounting complete, which I removed today to show you the setup. As an aside, I then had a go at the studs you're struggling with because they will eventually need to be removed for the same reason. The engine has been lying around for years so a good test. I can assure you that despite initially giving you the feeling they won't move, by doing it as Dave described and using a length of pipe over the spanner to avoid suddenly jarring the stud, it moved without drama...in fact they both came out easily.
Hi Peter, Thanks for the explanation, it's good to know others have the same problems and fixes. A great help :worship::worship::worship:
Ian.
