Hello.

I am having a real frustrating time with my 1969 500 F with 126 gearbox and 650cc engine.

However or wherever I drive it jumps out of gear. 1st and 3rd are the affected gears, but obviously 3rd is the gear that it happens most on. It pops out on a regular basis and vastly detracts from driving pleasure.

The car was involved in a rear end shut recently which has been repaired, I'm guessing the knock has caused the problem because the car was running perfectly prior to this.

Is this any easy fix or is this going to be grief ongoing??

Any help greatfully received. Please keep any technical answers as simple as possible please.

Thank you for any help.

Stu.

You will need to adjust the gear lever 'box'---the part at the base of the gear-lever where the action of the gear-lever is transmitted into the fore-and-aft movement that selects the gears. On the right-hand side of the central tunnel, level with the gear-lever, you will find 2 x 13mm bolt heads. Slacken both of these bolt-heads off SLIGHTLY and then tap them FORWARD slightly. Re-tighten bolt-heads and road-test car. For your (and anybody else who needs to know) information, if you have a problem with 2nd/4th/reverse selection, you tap the box BACK.

It may just be that you're simply not fully engaging the gears for the reason for which Tom describes the corrective action. But an alternative reason, as I understand it, is a possible problem with the detent balls or springs. These are fitted in the side of the box and locate into grooves in the selector-rods, thus wedging the car in the selected gear. The balls and grooves can wear but more likely, the springs can weaken or break. I think it would be possible to inspect this with the box still in position but definitely follow Tom's advice first.

I will agree with Tom because I had exactly the same problem only that adjusting the box wasn't enough so I shortened the linkage that connects the gearbox shaft with the gear selector shaft under the car for 1cm. It was shortened when I bought the car and I replaced it with a new part but seems that previous liner had his reasons. Yes my car is 1cm shorter probably because of a rear hit as yours. In your case you have to bring the box all the way fwd.

Today I managed to get round to the garage and have a go at adusting the two bolts as per the suggestions.
The problem is, the bolts were already as far forward as they could go, so no way of making any adjustments this way.

What might be the next step? Is there another way of making the adjustment or is now a garage job and lots of money.

Any help or advice gratefully received.

Stu.

SDHXIII said:

Today I managed to get round to the garage and have a go at adusting the two bolts as per the suggestions.
The problem is, the bolts were already as far forward as they could go, so no way of making any adjustments this way.

What might be the next step? Is there another way of making the adjustment or is now a garage job and lots of money.

Any help or advice gratefully received.

Stu.

Click to expand...

It sounds like gearbox is sitting too far forward since the rear shunt. That may be adjustable. Are the gearbox mount vertical and free from stress? I've installed them at an angle before and it's caused similar issues. You could slacken the gearbox mounts and see if the engine and box can be moved back a bit. As long as it sits where you want it to without stressing the mounts.


If that doesn't work then it sounds like the engine mount on the rear panel has moved forward, then you have 2 choices:
1. Fix the rear panel
2. Do what gordinir8 suggested and shorted the gear linkage plate.


No.2 is far easier!

MOD500 said:

It sounds like gearbox is sitting too far forward since the rear shunt. That may be adjustable. Are the gearbox mount vertical and free from stress? I've installed them at an angle before and it's caused similar issues. You could slacken the gearbox mounts and see if the engine and box can be moved back a bit. As long as it sits where you want it to without stressing the mounts.


If that doesn't work then it sounds like the engine mount on the rear panel has moved forward, then you have 2 choices:
1. Fix the rear panel
2. Do what gordinir8 suggested and shorted the gear linkage plate.


No.2 is far easier!

Click to expand...

First check No1 as MOD500 mention if that doesn't work proceed to step two. The easiest way is to find a metal blade 2-3mm thick and fabricate a linkage that will be a little shorter of the original and give it a try (in my case 1cm shorter). If this work then you can modify the original part or liet the metal blade, I saw no difference in vibration in my gear shift and to be honest now with the original linkage there is a noise coming from my shifter:bang: so i need to re adjust ...

As this problem with gear selection only manifested itself after the crash damage was 'repaired', I'd suggest contacting the repairer and asking them to rectify this issue. Did they not roadtest the car post repair? Did they not notice it jumping out of at least 1st gear when moving the car?


I'd agree with the others above who have suggested that the engine/gearbox has possibly been pushed forward in the collision and the possible solution mentioned.


Re:- being unable to move the gear lever 'box' forward due to no room left in the slots, might I suggest lengthening the slots.

This could be done by removing the 2 x 13mm headed bolts, push the gearlever 'box' out of the way (as far as is possible!) and either drill 2 new holes adjacent to the existing holes and join them up using a file or rotary burr drill (looks like a twist drill bit with teeth along the shaft). Alternatively, just use a Dremel type tool (if you have access to one) with a rotary burr on it's own.

Before doing this, check that the gear lever 'box' can actually move forward more than at present, you can check this by removing the 2 x 13mm bolts. - e.g. it might be limited by the hole for the gearlever in the top surface of the 'transmission' tunnel (it's been a long while since I've worked on a 500).

AL.

Folowing up on all these thoughts it's worth checking that it's not just the gearbox rubbers that have un-bonded from their backing metal or that they haven't been distorted in the shunt.
The cradle that holds these mountings and supports the box might even have been twisted backwards; all these things are a cheap and fairly easy replacement.
Even if it turns out that the rear supporting panel for the engine mounting has been bowed inwards it's an easy and again, relatively inexpensive item, that if identified as the fault, a new one could be painted body-colour as separate item from the car

When the adjustment of the gear lever mount on the tunnel is correct then the gear lever should be standing vertical when in neutral.

Right,
The rear panel was replaced following the collision, as far as I can tell this is in the correct position.

I have, as suggested by FIAT 500 OCUK, slightly undone the 13mm tunnel bolts and put it in 1-2-3-4 several times quickly and re-tightened the bolts.

Next thing to check is gearbox mounts and see how it all sits. Where will I find these mounts and how many are there? Is this an under the car job? How are the adjusted. I have the Haynes manual for the 500 and 126 if there is a picture that would show them, which page number?

The gearstick in natural sits very slightly pointing forward rather than dead upright. If I enlarge to 13mm bolt slots towards the front I'm guessing this would allow for the leaver to go forward making it upright again?

I am hoping to have a go at this tomorrow hopefully.

I am VERY basic when it comes to this kind of thing, so a dummies guide would be very helpful.

Thank you,
Stuart.

SDHXIII said:

Where will I find these mounts and how many are there? Is this an under the car job? How are the adjusted. I have the Haynes manual for the 500 and 126 if there is a picture that would show them, which page number?

.

Click to expand...

Stuart:
:idea:Under the car...two of them.
Not really adjustable but cheap and (dare I say ) easy to replace.
Image 3.10 page 56, Haynes 126 Manual. You may not have the torsion plate referred to as this is an optional extra not always retrofitted on a 500.
The rubber can de-bond from its metal back-plate and become useless and yet this might not be obvious because gravity keeps it all together. The rubber will be suspect if it's wet with oil and feels spongy.

I would be testing the amount of movement that you get at the shaft which goes into the gearbox to select gears. One method might be to put a Tippex mark on it, at a distance from the outside of the box and then to measure the how close the mark comes to the box when 1st or 3rd are selected. Then disconnect the rubber "lollipop" from the gearbox side and select the gears again manually by using force on the selector-rod (put a thin bar or long bolt through the hole in the rod and twist the right way then push hard). Measure the Tippex distance again and if it's less than before we know for sure that it's jumping out of gear because it's not properly in gear in the first place when selected with the gear-lever.. Hard to clearly explain and fiddly to do, but a simple test

Okay, today I put the back of the car up on my mini ramps. I have taken a photograph of the gearbox mount and it looks to me if the whole lot has been shunted forward a bit. What do you think?

My plan now is to obtain two new mounts and replace them. Is this an easy job?

Do I need any specialist tools?

Is it a case of one out one in?

Once unbolted would I be able to then 'pursuade' the gearbox backwards a few mm, if so how much pursuasion would it need?

When making adjustment I presume I would need to untighten the 13mm bolts on the tunnel at the gear leaver?

I'm determined to crack this before I begin to fall out of love with the little FIAT.

Thank you for your ongoing help...
Stuart.

Looking at those pictures Stuart it looks like the lollipop, the flexible rubberised joint between the gear selector shaft and the gearbox, looks like it is about to split in half. I would imagine the rear end shunt has caused this and that little change in the length could cause the problem you experiencing.

Firstly I would unbolting the lollipop and inspect that, as in the pictures it doesn’t look right? If in doubt replace it.

I would tempted to stick a trolley jack under the gearbox, unbolt the bracket, check the rubbers haven’t separated from the mounts, if all ok just line them all up straight and tighten up the bracket again. Otherwise again just replace as necessary.

You won’t be able to move the gearbox forwards or backwards, as it fixed by the engine mount on the rear panel.

Tony

SDHXIII said:

Okay, today I put the back of the car up on my mini ramps. I have taken a photograph of the gearbox mount and it looks to me if the whole lot has been shunted forward a bit. What do you think?

My plan now is to obtain two new mounts and replace them. Is this an easy job?

Do I need any specialist tools?

Is it a case of one out one in?

Once unbolted would I be able to then 'pursuade' the gearbox backwards a few mm, if so how much pursuasion would it need?

When making adjustment I presume I would need to untighten the 13mm bolts on the tunnel at the gear leaver?

I'm determined to crack this before I begin to fall out of love with the little FIAT.

Thank you for your ongoing help...
Stuart.

Click to expand...

Firstly...what gear is it in in that image? presumably 2, 4 or reverse?

The rubber "lollipop" connector looks suspect like there is a split in it but that may just be the effect of the camera flash. Also, is there free movement where it connects to the box and to the actuating rod from inside the car?

The mounting does look to be (as we say in Scotland) squint. But it doesn't necessarily need replacing as it may just have settled that way when fitted or have been pushed there in the shunt. You could try simply slackening the 13mm nuts to the slotted hole in the cradle and the ones securing the metal backing to the gearbox and then try to force it to settle in a neat position relative to the box. But I don't think it will move. The linkage could stay in place whilst you did this and the position of the gear lever might move.

To replace them you would support the gearbox on a stand, remove the 17mm setscrews which hold the cradle on. remove the nuts from the mountings and the whole thing would come off. But hold back on that because it is looking like your first thoughts about this being an effect of the bump may well be the case.

Great minds

Vitesse said:

Great minds

Click to expand...

.....not so sure about mine (d)

Stuart's got me hooked because I can't accept anyone falling out of love with a Fiat 500. It must be sorted. If he hadn't professed being a novice I would have said why not support the engine too and see if the mounting naturally wants to go backwards indicating its possible correct location.
Pity we aren't close as I would lend him a good rear engine support to see if the existing is bent.
The oddity is that if the power train has been pushed forwards that would effectively reduce the distance that the gear-lever needs to move in order to engage 1st and 3rd....you might actually be forcing it past the engagement slot rather than not quite far enough.

fiat500 said:

.....not so sure about mine (d)

Stuart's got me hooked because I can't accept anyone falling out of love with a Fiat 500. It must be sorted. If he hadn't professed being a novice I would have said why not support the engine too and see if the mounting naturally wants to go backwards indicating its possible correct location.
Pity we aren't close as I would lend him a good rear engine support to see if the existing is bent.
The oddity is that if the power train has been pushed forwards that would effectively reduce the distance that the gear-lever needs to move in order to engage 1st and 3rd....you might actually be forcing it past the engagement slot rather than not quite far enough.

Click to expand...

Yeah it looks like it has moved forward in the impact but moved back again and the rubber mounts have stayed where they are.

The weak link is the lollipop when the car has been rear end shunted, so you would expect it be the part that fails first. It doesn’t look right in the pictures but as you say it’s not 100% clear in the picture and if it was damaged you would expect one side of the rubber to separate from the lollipop. The whole shifter assembly does provide a lot of leverage to select gears. I know on my synchro box I could barely change gear when trying to do it with a screwdriver on the end of the selector shaft when the engine and gearbox were sitting on the garage floor but as soon as it was all fitted in the car and the gear lever was connected it changed gear really easily. Which makes me wonder if the lollipop could be the cause, when you consider how much leverage it provides?

Thank you all for your suggestions, I think I will order a new lollypop and change that along with supporting the box, loostening off the supports and repositioning them.

I will keep you posted...