Technical Problem with Duologic

[Martin81]

Hello everyone.
I have a 2008 Fiat Panda 1.2 with a Duologic Gearbox. Mostly it runs just fine, but if I need to brake suddenly, it will shift to Neutral on its own. Some random wiggling of the stick between + and - seems to get it back into gear eventually.
For further information, I drive it in Auto, and this can happen at fairly slow speeds, around 30 mph.
Is this supposed to happen? Presumably not. What could the problem be? Any advice please.
Thanks,
Martin

 

[koalar]

Grande Punto - Dualogic troubleshooting Guide

This thread is for the general discussion of the Guide Dualogic troubleshooting Guide. Please add to the discussion here. tonico77 submitted a new guide: Dualogic troubleshooting Guide I decided to write this guide to help with Dualogic gearbox problems after seeing a Brazilian mechanic...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[MrMagoo]

Read the OBD codes!

 

[koalar]

Grande Punto - Dualogic troubleshooting Guide

This thread is for the general discussion of the Guide Dualogic troubleshooting Guide. Please add to the discussion here. tonico77 submitted a new guide: Dualogic troubleshooting Guide I decided to write this guide to help with Dualogic gearbox problems after seeing a Brazilian mechanic...

www.fiatforum.com

Gears are ejected in Driving
Accumulator defective
Too little oil in the system

 

[dagdromer]

And make sure the battery and the connections are in good shape. I had a Panda and a Punto with a dualogic. Both bought with problems in the dualogic. The panda it's battery was bad and they only drove it so now and then around the block. this caused the pump not to deliver sufficient pressure causing all kind of errors, like not shifting. replaced the battery and the new owners are driving it for 3 years already.

The punto had a similar problem, going into neutral while braking but that thing would not engage again until it felt like doing so. Could be within a minute but also half an hour. very tricky on public roads. The car had a 1,5 year old rebuild dualogic on it so that could not be the problem. I found a corroded ground to the gearbox and the connector to the pressure pump was not seating well. after fixing those the car drove perfect again.

 

[A3jeroen]

Bad ground at the rearlightcluster can throw tantrums too.

gr J

 

[Julii22]

Had one which uesd to give all sorts of jerks and I had it only for close to 3 years. Long story short my other half who is a mechanic got rid of the robot and now it's been running trouble free for as long as I can remember. Just get some cables, master cylinder etc and swap it to a full time manual. Problem solved.

 

[DaveMcT]

The fault prone reverse light system is used to tell the box that its in (or not in) reverse.

The clutch is known to wear much faster in Duologic. Fiat clutches get heavy to move when worn out, that stalls the servos raising faults.

 

[mapsi]

Hello there,

I have similar issues as described in the original thread.
The car is a 2004 Panda 1.2 Eleganza bought in Nov 21.

I have noticed that Duologic will go into neutral under heavy braking or acceleration, pretty scary when it happens on the M1.
Also there was an instance where it got confused and wouldn't go into gear at all, although I could hear something trying to happen under the bonnet. This resulted in the car being hand pushed to the side of the road and after a lot of swearing it decided that it can finally go back into gear.

I like a quirky car but when it's safe and reliable.

Sorry for the long intro.

So basically I'm looking for a garage in or close to London to have a look at it cos I've already tried Britannic and Stephens Engineering and it's been a "no we cannot touch it, it's too old" so far.

Any help would be appreciated as it's a lovely little city car.

Many thanks,
Angel

 

[koalar]

I have noticed that Duologic will go into neutral under heavy braking or acceleration,



Many thanks,
Angel

have you checked the Duologics oil level ?

sounds like its low

Fiat Punto 2004 User Manual

View and Download Fiat Punto 2004 instruction manual online.

manualmachine.com

 

[jrkitching]

Hello there

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Sadly I can't offer you much in the way of encouragement. These gearboxes are notoriously troublesome once the cars are more than a few years old.

This thread will give you an idea of what you are likely to be up against if you try to have this repaired.

It's possible the selespeed fluid level is low, and topping up may improve things for a little while. But even if this works, low fluid means you have a leak somewhere, and any improvement is likely to be at best temporary.

I've already tried Britannic and Stephens Engineering and it's been a "no we cannot touch it, it's too old"

In this case, I think they're offering you sound advice here. Attempting to have this repaired by a garage is all too likely to turn into a frustrating, wallet emptying exercise.

A 2004 Panda with a dualogic problem is essentially end of life and can't be economically kept on the road if you are relying on someone else to repair it. It pains me to say this, but the best advice I can offer is to sell it, as is, and buy something else.

 

[mapsi]

Thanks for getting back to me.
And apologies to Martin for hijacking his thread.

The garage next door to me that mostly works on old MGs have given it a once over and said that the there is oil leaking from the master cylinder.
When I asked them to top up the gearbox oil, they said that they couldn't tell how much oil is needed.
I know it's two different things but it sounded to me as "we don't want to touch it".

I guess I'll go through the AROC list of garages in London and see what happens...

I was about to give up on it, but it has grown on me despite my other car being a Honda S2000.

 

[koalar]

there's more than one Dualogic

I suspect yours the fill tank will be below a cover plate. Like this one

occasionally they are left off by a previous owner

 

[jrkitching]

I was about to give up on it

That would be the smart thing to do right now.

I guess I'll go through the AROC list of garages in London and see what happens...

Eventually you'll find some garage that's prepared to take your money in return for supposedly repairing it. The chances of that repair lasting more than a week or two are vanishingly small.

Unless the garage has specific knowledge of these transmissions, they're likely to make things worse, not better. You need specialist equipent to depressurise the system before you can even check the actuating fluid level. If the fluid level is low, it must be topped up with the correct Fiat fluid.

If you want advice from an independent Fiat specialist, give these guys a call; just over an hour's drive from London.

The gearbox oil is completely separate and unlikely to be a factor in this case; but is checked and topped up in exactly the same way as a fully manual transmission.

If it is the selespeed fluid that is actually leaking, any proper repair will cost much more than the value of the car.

and said that the there is oil leaking from the master cylinder

It's not clear from this statement exactly what fluid is leaking, or from where, so I won't try to read too much into it. But if you do have a second, unrelated problem, it only strengthens my recommendation to get rid of this car.

 

[irc]

there's more than one Dualogic

I suspect yours the fill tank will be below a cover plate. Like this one

occasionally they are left off by a previous owner

Some thoughts on the subject.
That video does indeed show the way to add some Selespeed fluid. Unfortunately, it is usually only a temporary fix (used by the unscrupulous to get rid of a problem car). It is not, however, the way to fill the system to the correct level. It may actually do harm, as it will probably exceed maximum when depressurised.

The system does not use (or lose) fluid when working properly... low fluid = leak somewhere (bad news), or a failed accumulator membrane (bad news, but a lot less bad, as the part is only about £100 to buy).
The gearbox CAN be the problem, as can the clutch. Unfortunately, the robot will continue to press a completely knackered clutch, or try to wrench a knackered gearbox into gear without the driver noticing much, because its all done by hydraulics, giving no "pedal feel" or "gearstick feel" to the driver. Eventually the pressures required will pop a seal, leading to a leak.
Most broken Dualogics I have come across went this route to the scrapyard, often via some awful bodger on the way.
The clutch on a Dualogic should be good for at least as far as a standard manual IF it is driven correctly. Much less it it is abused or driven like a "normal" autobox in traffic.
Worn clutch can be diagnosed by the Wear Index from the gearbox ECU. Replacement is mechanically identical to a manual, but needs the correct equipment to calibrate once changed.
Knackered gearbox can't be so easily diagnosed, but draining the contents and checking how much came out (and what state it was in) gives a good indication.
A Dualogic is just as likely to suffer from a failed input shaft bearing as a manual, so some indication can be got from the noises it makes.
Without hearing or seeing it, if it currently has no leaks, it is probably a failed accumulator. But that's only a guess at this stage.
I have an 04 with 140k miles which is on it's original clutch, second accumulator and second pump motor (caused by the failed accumulator).

 

[Martin81]

Hi there,
Thanks to everyone who has answered. The problem seems to happen less often now, though still occasionally. I'll wait until June to get it looked at as I want to combine it with the MOT to save money. I definately think it is a good idea to have a Fiat specialist look at it rather than a general place, so it will either be Small Car Services recommended above or the Fiat dealer near Guildford.
Also seriously considering going to Brooklands on 30/4 as I live nearby.

 

[koalar]

Why are we always so negative, we haven't seen the car.
Its 18 years old. Yes the seals will be loosing there spring and weeping slightly by now
if it is low on oil, and has taken 18 years to loose 200 ml or so, its likely to soldier on a fair bit longer,
if it is low on oil and the seller knew it and topped it up 5 months ago its likely to have a more serious problem
on these cars no software is required to top up the level.

0010T47 HYDRAULIC SYSTEM FLUID FOR GEARBOX WITH HYDRAULIC SELECTION CHECK LEVEL AND TOP UP IF NECESSARY - Fiat - PANDA - eLearn - 4CarData

of course it could be something completely different

now for the bad news at nearly 20 years old, over 21 year use to be called a classic. it will not be the only problem you will encounter, The car has little value, garage fees will quickly exceed its value. Its the type of car that needs someone that gets their hands dirty and can maintain it themselves. They are a very reliable car and give years of trouble free service. Parts are generally cheap but things do get old and wear out and garage fees are not.

there use to be car maintenance clubs, not seen one advertised in years, use to take your car with parts and someone would guide you through fixing and servicing.

 

[jrkitching]

Just everyone be aware we have two different owners/cars active in this thread just now; it's easy to get confused as to what exactly we're replying to.

 

[jrkitching]

The car has little value, garage fees will quickly exceed its value. Its the type of car that needs someone that gets their hands dirty and can maintain it themselves. They are a very reliable car and give years of trouble free service. Parts are generally cheap but things do get old and wear out and garage fees are not.

Very true, and an important point.

The most appropriate advice in situations like these depends very much on the expertise, skill level and facilities of their owners.

 

[Martin81]

Very true, and an important point.

The most appropriate advice in situations like these depends very much on the expertise, skill level and facilities of their owners.

Well, my skill level with cars doesn't extend much beyond checking the oil, or changing a wheel.