Technical Panda 169 New Throttle Body question

[atakan123123]

Greetings everyone, this will be a bit complicated explanation.

-Previous fault lamp, irregular operation, stalling.
I had problems.
I determined that the map and eccentric cable were broken and repaired them.

-I detected some vacuum leaks. I fixed it.


Despite these, I thought my idling was not very good. I don't trust iacv very much. When I disassembled it before to clean it, the plastic came off easily. It has worn out over the years.


-While I was investigating the first malfunction above, I also purchased the throttle body.


Now I decided to assemble it.

After installing it, the idling performance of the car increased significantly.
The vehicle started to reach idle speed much more easily and quickly.So yes, my problem was here and it was fixed. I experienced very positive developments. The time I have to wait for the car to idle while stopping, starting and maneuvering has decreased.



Problem;

• I guess he didn't recognize the new throttle body correctly.
• Sometimes the idle remains constant at 1400 rpm. (Too high) (I'm not talking about the automatic choke procedure)
• In general, it stays healthy at 800 rpm.
• Sometimes it is wavy like 800-500 -800-500rpm. It works.

But despite its choppy operation, it never knocks or tends to stall. So my vacuum circuit is very healthy.

The LPG circuit is a retrofitted circuit. When running on LPG, the rpm is currently around 1500. I need to go to the service to set this up. But the problems I am talking about now are the events that occur when the LPG system is turned off and the vehicle is started on gasoline.​

Question;

• Is there any automatic identification procedure that I know of? Or is there?

-Remove the terminal - Reconnect after the new throttle body. (20 minutes no energy)

• Also, when I disassembled the old TB, I observed that it was quite oily. There may be too much oil coming from the vapor recovery pipe.

 

[dagdromer]

I suggest to connect a diagnose tool like MES to it and check the parameters for the throttle body. from your story it sounds like you have a vacuum leak. it looks like you have a Lpi system (injecting LPG with separated injectors). These holders for these injectors are most often pressed into the inlet manifold and from experience I know that they can get loose and leak from there.

 

[atakan123123]

I suggest to connect a diagnose tool like MES to it and check the parameters for the throttle body. from your story it sounds like you have a vacuum leak. it looks like you have a Lpi system (injecting LPG with separated injectors). These holders for these injectors are most often pressed into the inlet manifold and from experience I know that they can get loose and leak from there.

How can I tell if there is a vacuum leak from OBD?
Can I tell this by looking at the map values when idle? Did you mean that?

Because all such values are within the reference range.

Frankly, I don't know exactly what to look for in this regard.

I can only say this.
The old TB does not have this problem.
But the idle engine of the old TB was bad.
If it's a leak, shouldn't it be there too?


It does it occasionally on the new TB. I'm adding a video.

In the video, I do not touch the gas pedal for about 10 seconds.

When I give it some gas it gets better and doesn't do it again.

 

[koalar]

Greetings everyone, this will be a bit complicated explanation.

-Previous fault lamp, irregular operation, stalling.
I had problems.
I determined that the map and eccentric cable were broken and repaired them.

-I detected some vacuum leaks. I fixed it.


Despite these, I thought my idling was not very good. I don't trust iacv very much. When I disassembled it before to clean it, the plastic came off easily. It has worn out over the years.


-While I was investigating the first malfunction above, I also purchased the throttle body.


Now I decided to assemble it.

After installing it, the idling performance of the car increased significantly.
The vehicle started to reach idle speed much more easily and quickly.So yes, my problem was here and it was fixed. I experienced very positive developments. The time I have to wait for the car to idle while stopping, starting and maneuvering has decreased.



Problem;

• I guess he didn't recognize the new throttle body correctly.
• Sometimes the idle remains constant at 1400 rpm. (Too high) (I'm not talking about the automatic choke procedure)
• In general, it stays healthy at 800 rpm.
• Sometimes it is wavy like 800-500 -800-500rpm. It works.

But despite its choppy operation, it never knocks or tends to stall. So my vacuum circuit is very healthy.

The LPG circuit is a retrofitted circuit. When running on LPG, the rpm is currently around 1500. I need to go to the service to set this up. But the problems I am talking about now are the events that occur when the LPG system is turned off and the vehicle is started on gasoline.​

Question;

• Is there any automatic identification procedure that I know of? Or is there?

It self learns, if it can't it flags a code

-Remove the terminal - Reconnect after the new throttle body. (20 minutes no energy)

The adaptive memory in none volatile, no amount of disconnecting the battery makes any difference

• Also, when I disassembled the old TB, I observed that it was quite oily. There may be too much oil coming from the vapor recovery pipe.

Normal, as long as the Map not covered it's fine, it only a problem if the bottom of the inlet manifold is filling up

View attachment 434950

 

[koalar]

How can I tell if there is a vacuum leak from OBD?
Can I tell this by looking at the map values when idle? Did you mean that?

Here's mine

At idle, with a tap of the accelerator

Constant accelerator taps

Because all such values are within the reference range.

Frankly, I don't know exactly what to look for in this regard.

I can only say this.
The old TB does not have this problem.
But the idle engine of the old TB was bad.
If it's a leak, shouldn't it be there too?


It does it occasionally on the new TB. I'm adding a video.

In the video, I do not touch the gas pedal for about 10 seconds.

When I give it some gas it gets better and doesn't do it again.

 

[atakan123123]

I installed old TB.
Idle speed sometimes remains high.

-When I give gas, the idle speed decreases. Then it starts to rise.

Also my ABS light started coming on. I checked the fuses, they are all good.


-I think there is a vacuum leak.

-I also detected oil in the intake manifold.
There is a significant amount of fat.


I wonder why oil is coming.

It looks like the manifold will be disassembled and all seals and connections will be re-strengthened.

That's what I'm thinking of doing right now.

I have no idea about ABS yet.

 

[atakan123123]

Yes, I checked the ABS DTCs today.

Left rear wheel speed sensor not reading.

I lifted the car up and checked the other wheels, there is data on the other wheels.

I think I have oxidized sockets or a faulty sensor.

By swapping the two sensors. I will check if there is any improvement.


Idle problems still continue. Regarding this, I am thinking of removing the intake manifold and checking the gaskets and all vacuum points.

 

[dagdromer]

you could use flammable brake clean to identify the vacuum leak. Just spray it around the edges of where components are joined. If the engine responds to the brake clean it you know where to look.

As for the oil if you have crankcase pressure the crankcase ventilation will take some oil and push that back into the inlet. To prevent this from happening a oil breather can be added in between. This does not solve the root of the problem but it prevents your inlet from getting full of oil/gunk.

 

[atakan123123]

The idle problem is going to drive me crazy.

I tell myself that I have learned all the malfunctions of the car and the location of its parts.

I am facing a problem that I cannot solve.


I installed a new map sensor today.

(Oiled map problem)
I had a spare on hand. I put the new one on.
I went for a test drive.
Just when I thought it was getting better, the idle speed suddenly increased when I entered the garage.

Sometimes it stays high, sometimes it stays low. However, this problem only occurs after the vehicle has fully warmed up. If I don't give gas the idle will always remain smooth.

It only breaks down when the vehicle overheats and after giving gas or moving off.

I've heard that idle fluctuations after warm-up can often be caused by temperature sensor issues.

The temperature sensor appears correctly on the screen. When I connected it to the OBD device, I saw it correctly. But of course I don't always watch via ODB.

Does anyone know what happens if I unplug the temperature sensor?

 

[koalar]

You asked what the inlet manifold should be


Which I have already posted

Without some feedback all we can do is guess every part of cars combustion cycle

Ignition
Fuel
Timing
And so on

 

[A3jeroen]

Sounds like a vacuumleak that opens up when warm. Are you sure the rubber seal on the new throttlebody sits 100% Ok?

gr J

 

[atakan123123]

HELLO. I still have obd device problem.

Many devices do not connect to my car. I can occasionally connect to the device I borrowed from a repairman friend. That's why I don't have the opportunity to constantly test in the digital environment.





- I decided to change the intake gaskets.

-I cleaned the manifold. I strengthened the LPG jacks with locktite and checked them.



I renewed the LPG hoses and map hoses.



Some parts of my temperature sensor were broken and the gasket was torn, I think it was leaking a small amount of water.



I installed a new temperature sensor.





-I removed the valve cover. The gasket was in very bad condition. I already had to renew it.

I checked the valve openings.



-I replaced my poor quality pipe clamps with thicker and stronger ones.



edit; I haven't finished the car yet. Not tested

 

[atakan123123]

I tried the car. the problem persists.

-I bought a new evaporation valve. Nothing changes, the problem continues.

If I remove the map sensor, the vehicle stalls immediately.

Camshaft sensor;
-I tried something like this. Even though I removed the camshaft sensor. The fault code does not appear.
Even though I unplug it, the fault code does not appear.
This situation seemed a little strange to me.


Previously, because the common energy cable of the camshaft and map sensors in my vehicle was broken, a fault code was displayed and my vehicle stalled.
I identified and fixed this problem a few months ago.

Could there be a problem with the eccentric wiring again?

Isn't it strange that the car doesn't show any malfunction warnings?


These days I'm thinking of buying an oscilloscope to test the sensors.
I work as an audio-visual technician, but actually I am a graduate of the electronics department.

 

[atakan123123]

And I would like to remind you again. The idle problem only occurs when the car is at maximum temperature. It does this after the fan has warmed up and is at the switch-on temperature. For example, after idling for 20 minutes.

It doesn't do it before. Only when it's hot.

 

[atakan123123]

I added the video to the yt site.

I've seen several users post videos of similar failures and comment that replacing the crank sensor fixed the problem.


Other than that, could the speed sensors have something to do with the deceleration phase?

Does the car just control fuel, or does it also control speed when slowing down?

I'm starting to wonder if ABS has something to do with this.

I changed the ABS right and left sensors.

It still gives the fault code at the same point, that is, the sensor is not faulty, but there is a problem with the cables going to the sensor.

 

[dagdromer]

Looking at your other post about the diagnosing software. i would not buy a scope for now but see if you could get the obd to work. Products like MES are able to do live logging so you can use the collected datapoints from there to plot a graph and see.

SInce you went over everything and the problem only occurs hot to me it sounds like a failing sensor. it may expands when heating up causing to send incorrect values.

 

[atakan123123]

map and rpm value

 

[koalar]

The last two graphs are correct and show

You haven't got a vacuum leak seen by the MAP

Your cam belt is timed correctly

The MAP is working correctly

The crank sensor is reading correctly

I don't know what's causing the fluctuations in the first graph

I doubt it will make any difference but you can run these only takes a few minutes

Seeing as its affected by heat it might be worth checking none of exhaust studs have snapped, it's fairly common for one to snap but it rarely causes an issue

Also while failing worth checking the seal between the inlet manifold and head only takes a few seconds

 

[atakan123123]

I did the vacuum test you did in the video.
Likewise, the vacuum is also very good.
All gaskets and sockets are new and cleaned.


By the way, the car started doing this even when it was cold.


crank sensor? Can't it cause problems from time to time?
Isn't it worth a try? I'm running out of options.

Worst case scenario I'll have a spare crank sensor.


And another interesting thing.

When I turn on the air conditioning compressor, the bad idling goes away.

Idling does not cause any problems.

Works smoothly in air conditioning scenario

This makes us think that the problem is caused by electronics or fuel timing.



I will check the output manifolds.

 

[koalar]

Great,

It's nothing to do with vacuum
The reading say there is no vacuum detected, the physical tests show there is no vacuum leak, let's move on

Very unlikely to be crank sensor, it should show drop outs in the graphs.
Let's move on

The ECU changes the running slightly when the air conditioning is on to compensate for the load

Have you cleared the self learnt functions and self adaption parameters yet.

With the compressor off, If you add an electrical load by turning the headlights and rear heated windscreen on does the bad idle remain or go away