Technical Panda 1.1 Active Eco Mysterious Sloshing Sound

[AlexJD]

So I had to take my Panda to my mechanic because it was due for a cambelt replacement. I asked for them to do the water pump as well since that's usually recommended.

I'm not sure how but there's this weird sloshing sound I hear now when I start the car. It seems to mostly go away after the engine warms to temperature.

I'm wondering if there might be some air in the coolant system that needs bleeding out? Otherwise I'm not really sure what's causing it. Coolant level is fine.

 

[AlexJD]

It's been a good one boys! As suspected the worst case scenario has now been confirmed, the head gasket is failing. Probably not related to the cambelt/water pump replacement just unlucky timing (pun intended).

RIP 2010-2023. Cost to replace >£500 but he couldn't give a clear figure because obviously its hard to predict how long the work would take. Would take a month to find time to book in the work anyway. Essentially it's time to let go. Can't even drive 5-10 miles without blowing a load of coolant out the exhaust...

Probably worth getting a quote from another garage, but most places seem to not like these kinds of big jobs. Either way it's time to sell up, it's just a question of whether I get it repaired or give up and scrap. Regardless I think it's time to plan to sell it sooner.

Not sure what I'll get for my second car but even after this whole thing I'm still kind of tempted by the 100HP. I've grown the love the Panda's too much. Either that or I'll defect to a swift sport or something not sure...open to suggestions on that front.

 

[koalar]

As suspected the worst case scenario has now been confirmed, the head gasket is failing. Probably not related to the cambelt/water pump replacement just unlucky timing (pun intended).

Big coincidence


If the rest of the car is good, it would be well worth doing

 

[AlexJD]

Big coincidence


If the rest of the car is good, it would be well worth doing

Agreed. Rest of the car is good yes. All new plugs now and good quality tyres. It hasn't fully blown yet but it's on the way out.

But equally I think there's very little I can do in this situation other than call it quits.

It's already cost a fair bit replacing the belt/pump so not massively keen on dumping more money onto the problem.

I could buy another car, leave that one to them to fix the gasket and sell after but it feels like a bit of a gamble. This is my first car after all so I'm just figuring things out as I go, I'm likely to be wrong.

 

[DaveMcT]

Affordable 100HP are like rocking horse do do and have their own problems. £500 sounds a lot to me but it's only 2 months repayments on a cheap replacement car. You say the rest of the car is good so even that high cost makes it worth doing.

 

[AlexJD]

Sorry - this took a lot longer to get sorted than I thought! However, for the sake of closure, the Panda is still alive.

The brake disks and pads needed replacing (warped) but I ended up taking it somewhere else (not the mechanic that did the original water pump change) and they agreed that they do not think there is a problem with the head gasket. They found no problem, even after pressure testing the system and running the car for hours. It seems that leaving it for so long has allowed whatever air remained to escape. So that's the best possible and frankly luckiest outcome. I was very concerned about air creating heat spots and damaging the engine. I did bleed the system numerous times though.

So I now have a Panda with new brake discs, brakes pads, oil, oil filter, cambelt, water pump, iridium spark plugs (DIY), air filter, slave cylinder (DIY), and pretty kind-of new (1 year) tyres.

I did have to get another car in the end as I needed one for work. I will confess that I defected and and got a Suzuki Swift Sport ZC32S (please don't ban me) which I've absolutely loved so far. In my defence it was at a very good price with a minor gear selector bush issue (fixed). But the Panda has been very fun and was a great first car.

 

[kmor panda]

As compared to various other cars, I have found that removing air in the 169 to be one of the most wierd processes ever. The way I solved it is :-

1. With the car cold, top up the coolant to above max. I used pure coolant, not added water. Unless you are the one that filled the coolant in the first place, you do not know the ratio of coolant to water in the system. Also, pure coolant does not damage to a car.
2. Run the car until the engine heats up - you will see it on the dash when the gauge reads 50%. Note, this gauge will slowly increase wiith the car in idle, but as soon as you accelerate / drive, the needle will drop before returning to climbing. This is from the water pump increasing in speed and the pressure being increased in the coolant system. You can heat it faster with the bonnet closed and driving slowly. You want the temp to reach high enough to trip the rad fan. In idle, the revs will increase slightly from the fan load.
3. With the car idling, park on a hill with the nose upwards. This is forcing the bleed valve to be the highest point in the engine and the water pump to be the lowest. Water pumps don't pump air. That is the noise the OP was hearing - air and water going through the water pump.
4. Open the bleed valve a little and you will hear air excape. When coolant starts to escape, close the bleed and then turn the interior car heater on full hot.
5. Give it a few minutes until you feel warm air.
6. Switch it back to cold on the dashboard control.
7. Bleed it again and more air will come out.
8. Keep an eye on the resovoir level, and if it goes to low - stop, otherwise go back to #4 and repeat until you are just bleeding fluid.
9. Wait until the engine is cold again and top it up.

The 169 engines use a pressurised coolant system that you can bleed when hot, but fill when cold. In other words, don't open the fill cap of the resevoir when the engine is hot as you will release the pressure in the system. That is what the OP's garage did when they replaced the water pump - relleased the pressure, let air in and pressumed that the resevoir being full that they didn't loose enoough coolant to warrant adding any more.

 

[AlexJD]

As compared to various other cars, I have found that removing air in the 169 to be one of the most wierd processes ever. The way I solved it is :-

1. With the car cold, top up the coolant to above max. I used pure coolant, not added water. Unless you are the one that filled the coolant in the first place, you do not know the ratio of coolant to water in the system. Also, pure coolant does not damage to a car.
2. Run the car until the engine heats up - you will see it on the dash when the gauge reads 50%. Note, this gauge will slowly increase wiith the car in idle, but as soon as you accelerate / drive, the needle will drop before returning to climbing. This is from the water pump increasing in speed and the pressure being increased in the coolant system. You can heat it faster with the bonnet closed and driving slowly. You want the temp to reach high enough to trip the rad fan. In idle, the revs will increase slightly from the fan load.
3. With the car idling, park on a hill with the nose upwards. This is forcing the bleed valve to be the highest point in the engine and the water pump to be the lowest. Water pumps don't pump air. That is the noise the OP was hearing - air and water going through the water pump.
4. Open the bleed valve a little and you will hear air excape. When coolant starts to escape, close the bleed and then turn the interior car heater on full hot.
5. Give it a few minutes until you feel warm air.
6. Switch it back to cold on the dashboard control.
7. Bleed it again and more air will come out.
8. Keep an eye on the resovoir level, and if it goes to low - stop, otherwise go back to #4 and repeat until you are just bleeding fluid.
9. Wait until the engine is cold again and top it up.

The 169 engines use a pressurised coolant system that you can bleed when hot, but fill when cold. In other words, don't open the fill cap of the resevoir when the engine is hot as you will release the pressure in the system. That is what the OP's garage did when they replaced the water pump - relleased the pressure, let air in and pressumed that the resevoir being full that they didn't loose enoough coolant to warrant adding any more.

I wish I had know about all of this before. It explains why I had such a hard time bleeding it myself, leading me to think there was a leak somewhere. The Fiat specialist I took it to after gave me a similar explanation.

One note though, the original garage did add coolant and the coolant added was on the invoice. I do suspect it wasn't bled correctly though. But it's sorted now and there's no major issues so happy now.

 

[koalar]

As compared to various other cars, I have found that removing air in the 169 to be one of the most wierd processes ever. The way I solved it is :-

1. With the car cold, top up the coolant to above max. I used pure coolant, not added water. Unless you are the one that filled the coolant in the first place, you do not know the ratio of coolant to water in the system. Also, pure coolant does not damage to a car.
2. Run the car until the engine heats up - you will see it on the dash when the gauge reads 50%. Note, this gauge will slowly increase wiith the car in idle, but as soon as you accelerate / drive, the needle will drop before returning to climbing. This is from the water pump increasing in speed and the pressure being increased in the coolant system. You can heat it faster with the bonnet closed and driving slowly. You want the temp to reach high enough to trip the rad fan. In idle, the revs will increase slightly from the fan load.
3. With the car idling, park on a hill with the nose upwards. This is forcing the bleed valve to be the highest point in the engine and the water pump to be the lowest. Water pumps don't pump air. That is the noise the OP was hearing - air and water going through the water pump.
4. Open the bleed valve a little and you will hear air excape. When coolant starts to escape, close the bleed and then turn the interior car heater on full hot.
5. Give it a few minutes until you feel warm air.
6. Switch it back to cold on the dashboard control.
7. Bleed it again and more air will come out.
8. Keep an eye on the resovoir level, and if it goes to low - stop, otherwise go back to #4 and repeat until you are just bleeding fluid.
9. Wait until the engine is cold again and top it up.

The 169 engines use a pressurised coolant system that you can bleed when hot, but fill when cold. In other words, don't open the fill cap of the resevoir when the engine is hot as you will release the pressure in the system. That is what the OP's garage did when they replaced the water pump - relleased the pressure, let air in and pressumed that the resevoir being full that they didn't loose enoough coolant to warrant adding any more.

Can you explain step 4 and 6

It's all over the internet but I don't see what it does

Turn the heaters on hot
Turn the heaters back to cold

 

[bugsymike]

Can you explain step 4 and 6

It's all over the internet but I don't see what it does

Turn the heaters on hot
Turn the heaters back to cold

Yes I agree in the old days with heater valves that opened and shut, but most vehicles the heater controls just direct the air flow so would have little affect on water flow.As I understand it heater matrix on modern cars being "open" all the time form part of the vehicle cooling system probably to allow manufacturers to get away with smaller radiators.
In the past if we had a troublesome system to bleed we would remove the highest heater pipe and backfeed water via a hose until clean water came out, obviously antifreeze strength needed correcting.

 

[koalar]

Yes I agree in the old days with heater valves that opened and shut, but most vehicles the heater controls just direct the air flow so would have little affect on water flow.As I understand it heater matrix on modern cars being "open" all the time form part of the vehicle cooling system probably to allow manufacturers to get away with smaller radiators.

Correct

 

[jrkitching]

Can you explain step 4 and 6

It's all over the internet but I don't see what it does

Turn the heaters on hot
Turn the heaters back to cold

It's useful on cars which adjust heater temperature by using a valve to modify the coolant flow through the heater matrix.

It's totally irrelevant, and pointless, on cars which adjust heater temperature by using flaps to control airflow through the heater matrix. On these designs, water flows freely through the heater matrix regardless of the heat control setting.

The Panda uses the latter method, and anyone who's done any significant work on one will know this. On a 169 Panda, fiddling with the heater controls won't help you bleed air out of the cooling system. Particularly on models with climate control, it may, however, break the flap actuating mechanism, which will create a new, hard-to-fix problem.

There's a lot of misleading or just plain wrong information on internet forums, this one included, and moderators can't realistically correct all of it. Everyone needs to be web wise; if you're going to rely on such information, it pays to do a little homework on the history of whoever has posted it.

If someone is suggesting that adjusting the heater controls will help you bleed the coolant on a 169 Panda, I'd take anything else they post with a pinch of salt. A few folks just copy and paste what they find elsewhere on the 'net in the mistaken hope that it'll somehow make them appear more knowledgeable or important.

 

[koalar]

The Panda uses the latter method, and anyone who's done any significant work on one will know this. On a 169 Panda, fiddling with the heater controls won't help you bleed air out of the cooling system. Particularly on models with climate control, it may, however, break the flap actuating mechanism, which will create a new, hard-to-fix problem.

Good spot, As i had forgen about the common blend flap problem

There's a lot of misleading or just plain wrong information on internet forums, this one included, and moderators can't realistically correct all of it. Everyone needs to be web wise; if you're going to rely on such information, it pays to do a little homework on the history of whoever has posted it.

Correct

I have a good example of one from YouTube, which I will post in a new thread

 

[kmor panda]

I wish I had know about all of this before. It explains why I had such a hard time bleeding it myself, leading me to think there was a leak somewhere. The Fiat specialist I took it to after gave me a similar explanation.

One note though, the original garage did add coolant and the coolant added was on the invoice. I do suspect it wasn't bled correctly though. But it's sorted now and there's no major issues so happy now.

What I have noticed on the 169 is the ratio of coolant diamater hoses to the ones that go via the inner heater radiator - they are almost miniscule in comparison. It is not a problem, but something to be aware of - when it is cold (winter) and the engine is in idle, the water pump does not run fast enough to get heat into the inner radiator to heat the car unless you accelerate, and then it heats very fast almost to burning hot air coming out of the vents. Secondly, and in winter you will see this, the temp gauge, from cold, will slowly creep up in steps almost to 50%, but as soon as you start driving, it jumps down a few marks as the cold air is runnig around the engine. It will eventually go back up to 50% where the car interior heats up very fast, but before that, the car interior is cold.

Other cars I've had, in the snow I could leave them idling for about 15 mins and the inside would heat - the Panda doesn't unless you drive, but it does create enough warmt to defrost the windscreen of a layer of snow.

.... and no, there is NO air in my coolant system nor a leak as the resevoir level has been constant for the past 2-3 years since I flushed it, filled it and bled it.

 

[jrkitching]

Secondly, and in winter you will see this, the temp gauge, from cold, will slowly creep up in steps almost to 50%, but as soon as you start driving, it jumps down a few marks as the cold air is running around the engine.

It does indeed behave this way, but the cause is the thermostat opening and cold coolant passing over the temperature sensor.

It's nothing to do with airflow over the engine.

Best practice is to leave the heater turned off until the coolant reaches operating temperature. This will ensure the fastest warmup, which both reduces engine wear and improves fuel economy.

Warming up the car by letting it idle unattended on the drive is bad for both the engine and the environment. On a public road, it's also illegal.

 

[kmor panda]

It's useful on cars which adjust heater temperature by using a valve to modify the coolant flow through the heater matrix.

It's totally irrelevant, and pointless, on cars which adjust heater temperature by using flaps to control airflow through the heater matrix. On these designs, water flows freely through the heater matrix regardless of the heat control setting.

The Panda uses the latter method, and anyone who's done any significant work on one will know this. On a 169 Panda, fiddling with the heater controls won't help you bleed air out of the cooling system. Particularly on models with climate control, it may, however, break the flap actuating mechanism, which will create a new, hard-to-fix problem.

There's a lot of misleading or just plain wrong information on internet forums, this one included, and moderators can't realistically correct all of it. Everyone needs to be web wise; if you're going to rely on such information, it pays to do a little homework on the history of whoever has posted it.

If someone is suggesting that adjusting the heater controls will help you bleed the coolant on a 169 Panda, I'd take anything else they post with a pinch of salt. A few folks just copy and paste what they find elsewhere on the 'net in the mistaken hope that it'll somehow make them appear more knowledgeable or important.

In the Fiat Panda 169 1.1 engine that I have, the internal heater is fed via a tap type valve. If I leave the dash control off, the heater matrix stays cold even on high revs. If I turn the dash control hot, the heater matrix gets hot. This heater matrix is in the direct airflow from outside air to the inside where past it there are flaps that turn on/off each subcircuit. In mine, since there is no filter between the air intake and this matrix, it is plastic welded as part of the housing, dust etc gets caught in the aforementioned matrix as it is after the fan. I have been contemplating removing same just to clean it to increase the air flow in the internal air system but keep putting it on the long finger as it means draining the coolant first and a lot of working upside down at the matrix.

 

[koalar]

What I have noticed on the 169 is the ratio of coolant diamater hoses to the ones that go via the inner heater radiator - they are almost miniscule in comparison. It is not a problem, but something to be aware of - when it is cold (winter) and the engine is in idle, the water pump does not run fast enough to get heat into the inner radiator to heat the car unless you accelerate, and then it heats very fast almost to burning hot air coming out of the vents. Secondly, and in winter you will see this, the temp gauge, from cold, will slowly creep up in steps almost to 50%, but as soon as you start driving, it jumps down a few marks as the cold air is runnig around the engine. It will eventually go back up to 50% where the car interior heats up very fast, but before that, the car interior is cold.

Other cars I've had, in the snow I could leave them idling for about 15 mins and the inside would heat - the Panda doesn't unless you drive, but it does create enough warmt to defrost the windscreen of a layer of snow.

.... and no, there is NO air in my coolant system nor a leak as the resevoir level has been constant for the past 2-3 years since I flushed it, filled it and bled it.

You have a problem that needs fixing

These engine pump out loverly and hot at idle

It would also explain why you are struggling to bleed it, They normally self bleed fairly quickly

 

[koalar]

It does indeed behave this way, but the cause is the thermostat opening and cold coolant passing over the temperature sensor.

It's nothing to do with airflow over the engine.

Correct

Easy to check as the top hose will warm up from a cold start

 

[koalar]

In the Fiat Panda 169 1.1 engine that I have, the internal heater is fed via a tap type valve.

Post a photo of the valve

I have every access to all the document

Must be the only one in the world

 

[jrkitching]

Something else to watch out for on these cars is that they won't reach normal operating temperature (especially in winter) unless the thermostat is fully functional; even a small amount of coolant flow when not required will cause the engine to run cool, and you'll see this on the temperature gauge. The cause is a failing rubber seal built into the thermostat, and the fix is to replace the thermostat complete; fortunately both straightforward and cheap. This is a well known issue.

If the temperature won't sit in the middle of the gauge once warm, even by only a small amount, then change the 'stat; it'll trash fuel economy if you continue to use it like this, and wear your engine out faster as well.

I've dealt with this issue on my own Panda; the gauge was down from normal by about the width of the needle, and I lost nearly 10mpg until I fixed it.

 

[kmor panda]

It does indeed behave this way, but the cause is the thermostat opening and cold coolant passing over the temperature sensor.

I.E. you are stating that the guage bhaves that way after hitting 50% = normal running temp cause the internal thermostat is not open! By the time the car reaches operating temp, the internal stat is already open. It is caused by 2 items, cold air running via the rad and cold air running around the engine block. Both decrease the coolant temp which causes it to loose heat a lot faster than when it was sitting stationary in ones drive!

It's nothing to do with airflow over the engine.

see above!

Best practice is to leave the heater turned off until the coolant reaches operating temperature. This will ensure the fastest warmup, which both reduces engine wear and improves fuel economy.

If as you state that there is flaps not a valve on the 169, what does it matter? The interal car cabin is after all, sealed! As a result, the difference in heat loss by heating the internal cabin will not make a huge difference to an engine running above 100 degrees!

Warming up the car by letting it idle on the drive is bad for both the engine and the environment.

Warming up an engine i.e. letting it reach operating temp is a lot better for a car than increasing the revs / load on a cold car where one can damage moveing components. Oil also has an operating temp range and gets sluggish = not working when cold. As a result, driving a cold engine is a lot more damaging that waiting for the car to warm up.... and you state that I mislead people! Even in this post, you contradict yourself!

On a public road, it's also illegal.

I never suggested doing this on a public road. I do give people credit for some intelligence / cop-on!