Opinions and help please.

[AndyRKett]

I think you have to look at that video in context.

We all know that 1970's Mercedes could be driven into battle and come out of a nuclear blast unscathed but that was many, many years ago now.

That seems to be what they are saying, that the "reputation" of the past no longer exists. Well no but then they haven't built cars like that for 30 - 40 years.

The other thing to consider is that it is an opinion piece, so they are taking a particular stance and then asking people "is this right" well as i've already said we all know that in that context it is right.

Where it falls down is it is comparing the build quality of german cars in the past to german cars of now. What it doesn't do at any point is compare the build quality of German cars now to any other manufacturer or country.

There is a reason we're not all rushing out to get the latest Baojun or Wuling from China (actual real car brands)

They have also skewed things a bit by being selective about who they question, note they look at the US JD power survey which likely doesn't include many "German cars" made in Germany. I notice that landrover performed better in the brief snipet they showed which is saying something, given landcover regularly performs worst in reliability in the UK. And the JD power survery also assesses things like Dealership experience or resale value.


So to put that video in context. German cars are not made as well as German cars used to be..... but then we knew that.... about 30 years ago.

 

[The Panda Nut]

In today's money that's £19,633...at least in 1970 but even 1975 that still 10.5k..

Surely worth every single rooooooble!

 

[StevenRB45]

So to put that video in context. German cars are not made as well as German cars used to be..... but then we knew that.... about 30 years ago.

But most of the "Joke" cars from 30 years are significantly better made than they were 30 years ago (hello Kia, Hyundai etc.). This leaves them in the slightly awkward position of being below average to average...but charging the same as cars with 7 year warranty cover or even 10.

 

[porta]

Bit of an eye opener

Yup…the European press have been ‘denigrating’ German cars for about five or more years now and the German press have really had a field day with Daimler with three Mercedes being in their top ten of unreliable cars! Joining two VAG, two, Toyotas, two fords and Jaguar/Land Rover…
Contrarily, The 500l being one of their most reliable! Joining two Toyotas and a Honda
It’s almost as if the UK press is bias.
Their ratings are a little different as they take into account common faults and repair bills in with normal running costs and cars lose points for ‘noted large repairs’ eg. Autobild put 500l large bill as a clutch at €580…I’m rescinding my British citizenship and moving to the Europe! Wehn our ducato clutch went in Switzerland, 2014, it cost us €800 at an independent, RAC paid for overnight accommodation (after we came back) but they were generally crap!

 

[bugsymike]

Surely worth every single rooooooble!

Several years ago I sold a Lada Riva to a Russian sailor from a cargo ship, he was happy with the price, I said what was he going to do with it?
It turns out parts were so expensive to keep them on the road in Russia the common practice when they saw one was buy it, then strip every useful bit of it whilst on the slow boat to Russia, then kick the bodyshell into the sea!

 

[AndyRKett]

But most of the "Joke" cars from 30 years are significantly better made than they were 30 years ago (hello Kia, Hyundai etc.). This leaves them in the slightly awkward position of being below average to average...but charging the same as cars with 7 year warranty cover or even 10.

Again its all about context.

30 - 40 years ago Mercedes where making tanks dressed as cars. everything was mainly mechanical and what little electronics there were was very simple (window go up, window go down, light comes on when you open door)

But they where made from thick steel, then given the most rigorous rust protection you could imagine. The engines where bomb proof and simple, they had an attitude of why use one bolt if 6 will do the same job but last 20 years longer.....

This nearly bankrupted Mercedes and they adapted to making cars in a similar way to everyone else. Its worth noting that something like the JD Power survey is aimed at the main consumers who buy their cars new, keep it for 3 - 5 years and then buy another new one. They are no necessarily loyal to any one brand. They have a bad experience and they find fault with everything.

The JD power survey looks at things like the dealership experience, so in Jocks case his Seat (which would have been build in Spain) needs a new gear box and there is a big bill and an unpleasant time at the dealership. Some Korean cars have up to 7 years warranty so this sort of failure would be a mild inconvenience.

VW Dealers that I have experience of are very tight when it comes to loan cars, making you pay for them if its not a warranty item they are repairing.

Mini have a very different attitude of giving you what ever car you ask for because that might be the next one you buy, Its partly why we bought the Countryman over the Clubman as we had tried out both during normal routine services.

So those surveys do not just look at reliability, they look at how happy the customer was in the way it was dealt with.

I'd agree that there are German cars that are no better than "Average" compared to many other brands from other countries, but a Generic A-Class made in Brazil for a north American Market. Probably isn't built with the same care and attention as something more specialized like a G-Wagon built in German and made to order

Now try and buy a 600hp made to order custom Kia

 

[The Panda Nut]

Several years ago I sold a Lada Riva to a Russian sailor from a cargo ship, he was happy with the price, I said what was he going to do with it?
It turns out parts were so expensive to keep them on the road in Russia the common practice when they saw one was buy it, then strip every useful bit of it whilst on the slow boat to Russia, then kick the bodyshell into the sea!

Cut out the middle man, shove the whole thing over and be done with it!

 

[bugsymike]

Cut out the middle man, shove the whole thing over and be done with it!

In their defence, I have worked on Moskvich and Polski Fiat as well and would put them both further down the quality ladder, admittedly from a low bar

 

[vexorg]

30 - 40 years ago Mercedes where making tanks dressed as cars. everything was mainly mechanical and what little electronics there were was very simple (window go up, window go down, light comes on when you open door)

I'm not sure they were, you dont see many old mercs these days, andmaybe 5 years ago when you did see them, I was always amazed at the amoung of rust on 20-30 year old mercs. Maybe that's just costetic, but if they cant take carof the outside, who's to say the inside is much better (not inside the car, I mean mechanically)

 

[AndyRKett]

I'm not sure they were, you dont see many old mercs these days, andmaybe 5 years ago when you did see them, I was always amazed at the amoung of rust on 20-30 year old mercs. Maybe that's just costetic, but if they cant take carof the outside, who's to say the inside is much better (not inside the car, I mean mechanically)

There are Hundreds and thousands of old Mercs in the world. W123, W124 and W201, W202 Mercedes can be found still going all over the world, we just live in the west where having a new car is a status symbol and replacing is preferable to repairing.

The channel that the video above comes from also has many many videos singing the praises of the old Mercs.
with titles such as :-
Mercedes Classic: The Apex of Car making
Why Albanians only drive Mercedes Benz
West Africa's Unbreakable Mercedes Taxi
Albania's Unbreakable German Taxi.
Sudan's German Car Obsession.

While we threw them away, other countries bought them up and they just keep going

Anything post 1994/95 will be rusty, this was when standards changed. A lot of early 2000s cars (so 20 years old) can be terribly rusty and look terrible.

These cars are usually too far gone by the time we are done with them to bother exporting them to other countries so they just ended up scrap. Go watch some of the videos above and you'll see they are running around in cars more in the 30 - 40 year old age bracket.

In the Video about Albanians only driving Mercedes, is a guy who drives his back and forth to the UK it has a UK number plate and he makes the comment that in the UK we would just scrap it even though there is nothing wrong with it, where as in Albania they take care of it and look after it so he takes it there to have any work done on it, and repairs there are cheap.

 

[StevenRB45]

Again its all about context.

Sorry had to trim that down as it would be a beast of a thing..

The important context here though is, if it's marketed and sold as a premium item and doesn't deliver people will quite rightly stick the boot in.

It's not budget item it shouldn't act like one, the dealer shouldn't be a halfwit either. You've paid for quality item but don't get one and worse the dealer couldn't find his own arse with both hands and the manufacturer is uninterested then of course your feedback will be scathing.

 

[AndyRKett]

Sorry had to trim that down as it would be a beast of a thing..

The important context here though is, if it's marketed and sold as a premium item and doesn't deliver people will quite rightly stick the boot in.

It's not budget item it shouldn't act like one, the dealer shouldn't be a halfwit either. You've paid for quality item but don't get one and worse the dealer couldn't find his own arse with both hands and the manufacturer is uninterested then of course your feedback will be scathing.

Context


Lets talk about buying a computer.
A £5000 top of the range Desk top PC is built in the same way as a £2000 middle of the road PC and built in the same way as the £500 budget PC.

The £5000 item isn't considered to be Equal to the £500 PC. The £5000 Item could very easily be considered "premium".

A £60k Mercedes, with all the toys like heater electric seats, touch screens, LCD display, infrared cameras and radar for auto braking, auto parking pretty lights on the dash that make you go 'ooooh' etc etc. All these things cost money and make it a "premium item"

where as a £20,000 bottom range Citroen, fiat, Corsa or what ever with no options, is not considered a "premium car"

No where in the advertising for a Mercedes does it say anything about "being more reliable" they never have claimed that themselves. The person buying it may be under the opinion that they are somehow getting a more reliable item and that's when and why the throw a tantrum if something breaks, because things do break.

The build quality can be the same but you can still get a much "better" or "premium" item

 

[StevenRB45]

Context


Lets talk about buying a computer.
A £5000 top of the range Desk top PC is built in the same way as a £2000 middle of the road PC and built in the same way as the £500 budget PC.

The £5000 item isn't considered to be Equal to the £500 PC. The £5000 Item could very easily be considered "premium".

A £60k Mercedes, with all the toys like heater electric seats, touch screens, LCD display, infrared cameras and radar for auto braking, auto parking pretty lights on the dash that make you go 'ooooh' etc etc. All these things cost money and make it a "premium item"

where as a £20,000 bottom range Citroen, fiat, Corsa or what ever with no options, is not considered a "premium car"

No where in the advertising for a Mercedes does it say anything about "being more reliable" they never have claimed that themselves. The person buying it may be under the opinion that they are somehow getting a more reliable item and that's when and why the throw a tantrum if something breaks, because things do break.

The build quality can be the same but you can still get a much "better" or "premium" item

Indeed, I understand that..

Unfortunately it seems from their results in surveys where reliability is the subject that the cars don't deliver what the customer expects.

It might be a lovely car...but if you've not seen it for 6 months as it never works that kinda puts the brakes on a good score.

 

[vexorg]

I think you are mixing up relaibility and build quality.
Higher build quality should be better parts, better designed, and could be implied more reliable, but not necessarily.

And all car makes are not built the same, unless your mercedes rolled out a fiat factory then the build quality and reliability will be different.
(same as the high end PC argument, also doesn't work, at that level you do get better quality components that will make it more reliable, and often custom designs)

However, I would agree most premium cars are built the same.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

In their defence, I have worked on Moskvich and Polski Fiat as well and would put them both further down the quality ladder, admittedly from a low bar

Moskvitch? That brings back the memories. I think I've mentioned this before, so for you who saw it - apologies! It was back when we first moved back up here to the Edinburgh area from London. We lived in a wee village on a steep hill. neighbour had a Moskvich saloon - maybe the 412? Anyway, his house was half way up the hill and his car was parked at the kerbside. He hadn't locked it and my oldest boy, then probably about 5, 6 or 7 years old got into it with Bill's son and played at driving it. They managed to let the handbrake off and it ran down the hill until it ran into the front of next door's Austin Maxi. There was virtually no visible damage to the Moskvitch at all, the Maxi spent about a fortnight in the bodyshop and cost Bill and me a small fortune. Thank god the boys were unhurt, just considerably shaken and learned a very valuable lesson from the experience.

 

[bugsymike]

Moskvitch? That brings back the memories. I think I've mentioned this before, so for you who saw it - apologies! It was back when we first moved back up here to the Edinburgh area from London. We lived in a wee village on a steep hill. neighbour had a Moskvich saloon - maybe the 412? Anyway, his house was half way up the hill and his car was parked at the kerbside. He hadn't locked it and my oldest boy, then probably about 5, 6 or 7 years old got into it with Bill's son and played at driving it. They managed to let the handbrake off and it ran down the hill until it ran into the front of next door's Auatin Maxi. There was virtually no visible damage to the Moskvitch at all, the Maxi spent about a fortnight in the bodyshop and cost Bill and me a small fortune. Thank god the boys were unhurt, just considerably shaken and learned a very valuable lesson from the experience.

Whilst working at the dealership I managed to pick up a 427 (the estate model) for £70 it was seven years old at the time or maybe less, the starter had packed up. It was just the "sprag clutch" in the pinion and we had them in stock. Shortly after it had issues with the valve seats , I managed to locate some austentic steel? for a local "specialist" to make new inserts, unfortunately they came lose, it turned out he had cold pressed them into the head so when the aluminium expanded they didn't!. Needless to say he didn't get any repeat business.
Saying about your boys escapade, many years ago my second wife parked the Auto 504 Peugeot Family seven seater estate outside the house and apparently whilst getting the children out of the car she heard the house phone ring and ran to answer it leaving two of the children in their child seats, don't ask me why! Son managed to release his seat belt climbed to the front of the car and pulled the gear lever out of Park , it rolled a few yards and took a neighbours wall down. We had only recently moved in, but fortunately he was a builder and I only had to pay £25 towards the materials. I don't think logic was her strong point , a few years later we were very hard up and I went off to do a job which would earn me £20, when I came back I found a glazier repairing a window at a cost of £60 which I could have done for the cost of the glass and putty, it turned out a seagull was trying to start a nest on the roof so she threw a stone and hit the window instead!

 

[The Panda Nut]

In their defence, I have worked on Moskvich and Polski Fiat as well and would put them both further down the quality ladder, admittedly from a low bar

I was jesting! They were a mixed bag,dynamically poor but did have some appeal as cheap wheels. I had a mate who bought one. It looked respectable in a nice shade of dark blue and it was reliable in the main. After he got over tendonitis in arms and shoulder caused by the weighty steering he ran it for several years before selling it to a fate similar to whats is described here. A sad end to the Fiat 125 in my book though.

If you want a real shocker I give you FSO Polonez.

 

[porta]

If we’re talking what bits go in what, and what you pay for is what you get then sure, if you’re buying apple over Microsoft stuff but…

At least masser’ Ferrari do it the other way round

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Well, to get back to the original purpose of this post, which was to help me/us resolve the unsettling feelings brought on by the failure of Twinkle, the Ibiza's, gearbox.

Enough time has now passed for us to think much more rationally about this. We, Mrs J and I, are now of the same opinion which is that it would be "daft" to ditch the Ibiza after spending so much money on it. I've spent the best part of two days, not all at once, crawling all over it and I've found one or two wee things in addition to the O/S inner drive shaft joint which is very slightly worn, but will go on as is for some time yet. However the only other "serious" thing I've turned up is that there's a bit of a rattle from the clutch driven plate springs. If you jack one wheel off the ground, with the engine not running, stick the box in gear (it does it in any gear) and rock the suspended wheel back and forwards you can hear the springs "rattle" a wee bit as the free play is taken up. The noise is definitely originating inside the bell housing, not the new gearbox and anyway I've heard clutch plates do this before and I know exactly what it is. Annoying but will probably go on like this for many many miles. If it all goes pear shaped though at worst all it means is the fitting of a new clutch, and, this setup has a solid flywheel - Hurrah! I think it likely that the old box, having been driven for a few 100 miles whilst the bearings broke up, probably put a bit of strain on these springs and they are now likely a bit slack in their mountings between the inner and outer parts of the driven plate. A new clutch will be much cheaper than sinking maybe 10 grand in an early Mk2 Captur. (introduced 2020 and reported to be a considerable improvement on the Mk1).

There's also the fact that the new gearbox has a 2 year guarantee. We also have a very big family wedding coming up later in the year, It's the older son of my youngest brother, who tragically died with pancreatic cancer some years ago so we want to be sure it's a truly unforgettable occasion and having a bit of cash in hand to smooth out any "bumps" seems a good thing to do. Maybe after that we can start to think about a replacement for the Ibiza if we are still unhappy with it.

So there we are, feeling much more settled now the decision is made. Many thanks to all for the contents of this thread which I've very much enjoyed reading and joining in with.

 

[vexorg]

Justifying new cars is always a difficult one, unknown cost of future repairs vs high outlay for new car.

Much as I dont like the idea, the PCP does make sense for many. We've been caught in that trap too, my wife's new juke is on PCP, and the garage phone up to say do you want to try the new hybrid range. Turns out they can do a new car for near enough the same monthly payment, and 3 years servicing.