Technical Abarth Loose Connection Issues

[HSSB]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

...I did disconnect the battery - I tend to be pretty cautious around electrics as it's really not an area I'm that experienced in - but thanks for the tip!

The nut was locked solid, so definitely not loose, but just thought the actual connector might be a bit 'green' after my experience with the fog light bulb connector - worth checking I suppose...

Spent that much time on that one didn't get around to checking the other body earth from the diagram, so thats also on the list for tomorrow

May even try fitting another earth - forgive my ignorance but should I leave the existing ones connected (since I am not sure which could be playing up) - will getting 1 'good' earth on there help if there's still a dodgy one paying up?

Cheers!

 

[Argonought]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

It's not possible to have too many earths (aside from the extra weight and cost of the metal ). Adding a 2nd earth alongside an existing one is a good check to verify it's OK (and as said above - you can safely do that whilst the engine is running)

 

[HSSB]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Okay,

So probably going to have to make a custom length earth lead then couple of insulated crimp connectors and a length of 32/0.2 equipment wire? Or do I need heavier duty e.g. car battery power cable? - got a Maplins not far away as I suspect Halfords ain't gonna stock what I need...

Then identify a decent point on the engine block (or a good point on the bosy?) to attach it (the thread on adding additional earth points will be useful), and away I go..

Whoops, gotta go away briefly from the PC - Dr Who about to start

Back soon!

 

[Deckchair5]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

You need some thing at least the same wire rating as the existing one and preferably better as manufacturers only use the bare minimum. Have a look at the advice Stilatos gave as he replaced almost every earth on the car.
https://www.fiatforum.com/stilo-technical/121470-engine-bay-grounding.html

They often have earth leads pre made up at Maplins and Halfords as a lot of people do stuff with ICE that need big current/ low resistance. It wont matter if the lead is a little longer (bit too short is a nuisance though!)

You have a bad earth between the battery and the engine so you must attach your cable from the battery to a good place on the engine (and not the car body) to replace or double up on lead C2

 

[HSSB]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Well, added an extra earth, but no effect. In fact I tried adding at a couple of different places on the engine, but no joy at all...

Took to Fiat this morning for diagnostic as originally planned. They quoted earths all okay, but registering ABS hardware & software faults and a body computer fault. Cost to fix £900 for ABS and £303 for body computer - plus labour! And there's no guarantee that these will cure the problem.

Cars probably only worth around £3 / 3.5k

I'm in a bit of a quandary - do I spend more than I can really afford on a *possible* solution, get shot of the car, or have another go at pursuing the earthing issue (I still have a gut feeling thats at the root of this, even though Fiat discounted it)

Anyone able to offer any thoughts or inspiration?

Cheers

 

[Argonought]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

I agree, that's an insane amount to spend without even a guarantee

"Now an earth integrity check
With enigne running, put the pos lead of the meter on the neg lead of the battery and put the meter neg lead on a good earth on the engine (not the other end of the lead). Should be near zero. Anything above 0.5v and there's a problem sub 0,5 vault when ticking over until the gremlin kicks in, at which point it goes nuts then settles back when gremlin clears - I think we may have isolated the issue here?"

You seem very close to it here. Go back and investigate further (wiring diagram becomes crucial now though). Don't forget a defective earth doesn't have to be at a connection point on the chassis or engine - it could just as easily be within a plug/socket connection. Even without a wiring diagram, just a twist, push or pull (with engine running) might pick out the problem.

 

[Deckchair5]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

With engine running, put the pos lead of the meter on the neg lead of the battery and put the meter neg lead on a good earth on the engine (not the other end of the lead). Should be near zero. Anything above 0.5v and there's a problem sub 0,5 vault when ticking over until the gremlin kicks in, at which point it goes nuts then settles back when gremlin clears - I think we may have isolated the issue here?"

This, as we know, shouldn't be going nuts at all and points to a problem that must be sorted. Got some jump leads? Simply use the neg lead on its own and attach one end to the battery neg and the other to a good chunky bare metal earth on the engine. If that kills the gremlin then you know where the problem is - bad earth

If it still goes nuts then something is shorting the main supply to ground and that could be where the fun starts

Have you tried running it with the T13 relay disconnected?

 

[HSSB]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Just been out 'tweaking' all the connections I could reach (I don't have a full wiring diagram', but no joy.

Just to see, I tried the earth integrity check on the alternator, and the results off that even worse than the engine earth (assuming I did it correctly). Maybe the issue is there? Pretty crowded engine bay & it looks awkward to get at too

Got an old pair of jump leads, so going to try your suggestion, and also running without the T13 relay - though I have had that out & cleaned up already.

Will report back

Ta

 

[HSSB]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

..and gotcha (I think). No joy removing the T13, no joy when earthing the engine, but ran for several minutes with no faults when I connected the battery earth up to the alternator with a lead.

Gonna run another permananet earth to the alternator & take the car for a spin - see if it has a permanent effect.

Fingers crossed!

 

[HSSB]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

...and defeated again Gremlin was back before I'd even pulled out of the end of my road.

Checking the earth state again by putting a jumper cable to various places where there should be a good earth on the alternator no longer helps either - starting to think I just had a lucky few minutes & jumped to conclusions earlier.

Anyone know of a *good* auto electrician / independent Fiat specialist anywhere in the Llanelli / Swansea area I could take the car to? I'm about at my limit now, despite all the excellent advice on this thread, and I can't afford Fiat's £1500 'guess' on what might fix it

 

[Deckchair5]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Intermittent electrical faults are the devil to diagnose from a distance

Before we go off for some aspirin or a whisky. :devil:
Can you detail exactly what happens when "the gremlin" strikes. Sorry if you have to repeat a bit but there may be a clue there somewhere and so often people leave out vital info. What mileage do you have?

Do you never get an alternator warning light when this is happening?

 

[HSSB]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Hiya Deckchair. yeah, maybe I've just been looking at this too much past few days, so a fresh look could be in order.

Symptoms as follows.

a) At startup the fuel guauge zeros itself and climbs back to normal without any of the other symptoms - e.g. no ticking relay.

b)Intermittently at low revs I hear clicking from the T13 relay under the dash. At this point the following occur simultaneously:

1. Fuel Gauge zeros itself then climbs back to normal level
2, Odometer adds a mile (this only happens when the car is in motion, never when stationary)
3. 'Distance to empty' readout on the computer increases (probably because it things its doing c5 times the mileage on a tank of fuel than it really is)
4, Power steering kicks itself out of 'City' mode
5. Central locking sets itself (unlocks & locks)
6. *All* other electrical items continue to run as normal with no interruption e.g. radio, lights, air-con.
7. If I get more than 2-3 occurrences one after the other (e.g. if I am stationary in traffic) then the ABS, ESP, ASR warnings on the dash kick off and the ABS light stays on until the car is re-started.

I fI keep the car at above c1200rpm then the problems are greatly reduced though not entirely absent. When the car is cold the problems also seem less

I have a new body earth fitted and that seems to be okay (old one snapped off in my hand when checking it)
Testing earth integrity from engine and alternator both show significant jumps when the glitch occurs - alternator more than engine. I have run an additional earth lead to the alternator from the battery, but no difference.

Have recently had front springs replaced (one snapped) and the problem seemed to start a week or so after that - have had front wheels off this week in case this was in some way connected but could not see any problems. Did check / disconnect / reconnect ABS connections at the time.

Have also had new set of spark plugs recently - was initially getting an engine miss that co-incided with the gremlin. New plugs cured the missing, but not the electrical gremlin.

Think thats about the lot... the car generally runs fine (and I do a 30 mile per day commute to & from work), but I'm due the MOT next month and I suspect it will not pass with this issue going on - isn't ABS functionality a failure point?

ANy of the above set off a light in anyone's head?

And can I just say a big thanks for the help in this thread - outstanding & I definitely owe you one

Edit to add the alternator light does not show during the gremlin at all. And I'm showing a mileage of 60,000 (though at least 2000 of thats from false readings over last week or so due to this). Car is an 02 Abarth Selespeed - 5 door

 

[Argonought]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Good list but don't understand

Testing earth integrity from engine and alternator both show significant jumps when the glitch occurs - alternator more than engine. I have run an additional earth lead to the alternator from the battery, but no difference.

Are you reading this on the Voltage range (say 2.00v if you have it on your meter). Are you sure it's jumping higher and by how much?

There're only 2 possibilities:

1. The bad earth is still present i.e your new earth lead is not REALLY connected as you think it is.
2. Something is drawing a huge current which is pretty unlikely as it would have to be huge and I'd expect to see smoke somewhere.

Possibly a better test is to measure the voltage from both the engine AND chassis to battery positive (or a positive supply line near to the battery).

Make a list of the readings and post them up something like:

Connection ¦ Volts (normal) ¦ Volts (fault)

I'm assuming you (or a helper) can notice a difference when the fault occurs

 

[HSSB]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Right, just been out to do this.

My multimeter has 20. 200. 600. settings on the voltage range. These were all taken at the 20. setting:

Checking to the battery positive:
Engine | Volts 14 (normal) | Volts umping up to between 21 and 28 when fault occurs
Body | Volts 14 (Normal) | Volts 14 (fault)

No smoke or anything to notice...

Hope I've just done that right..

 

[OzMoSiS]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

good god, is your alternator working in overload or what!

so you're saying that to voltage goes up to a max of 28 when the 'thing' occurs?

and im assuming those tests were with the car running.

cant get to cardiff can you?

lol on a side note, id love my alt to make 28v, imagine the insane amounts of power my amplifiers would be making!, thats before they burn themselves though

 

[Argonought]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Right. I wouldn't do any more testing as you've just detected a big problem which could cause major damage

Something would seem to be up with the alternator or perhaps the wiring to it.

Deck's is a wiz on Stilo diagrams so I'm sure he will be able to suggest what to check next

 

[HSSB]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Yeah, this scared me - only flickered to the 28 reading for a fraction of a second, but thats enough.. generally bouncing to around max of 21 when the error occurs - which is still pretty bad

 

[OzMoSiS]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

when the 'thing' happens, do the revs go up at all? even for a split second?

 

[HSSB]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Nope, if anything there's a hesitation for a fraction of a second - you would not notice it when driving, but it was noticeable when I have been testing & tending next to the engine with the bonnet open..

 

[Deckchair5]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

If it IS jumping to 28volts then there's only one thing that can do that and that's the alternator. Main power voltage has been at the root of all of your symptoms. Gotta get something to eat, feed the brain. Back later