Technical Abarth Loose Connection Issues

[HSSB]

Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Okay,

so been getting a weird problem with my stilo abarth last couple of weeks. Kept getting a ticking from the main relay under the dash that co-incided with the fuel guage dropping to zero briefly and the central locking opening & closing. It also adds a mile on to the readout every time it does this. If I'm stationary with the vehicle running it does this multiple times, ending with a crescendo of ABS, ESR etc.. faults that you can only clear by restarting the car. Rarer when actually moving, and the car actually ran fine.

Took to Local garage and they stated faulty instrument cluster, but I wasn't happy with that explanation (and loath to visit either of my local fiat dealers due to bad experiences with both in the past).

So I do the sensible things , checked al the connections I could, including the infamous D4 etc and the problem got less - happening maybe 20-30 times on a 20 mile journey instead of 90-100+.

So tonight I decide to recheck everything (I figure I'm on the right track), and actually decide to take off the earth lead & clean it up (looked a little green at the edges where it joins the body by the suspension turret).

..except when I try to undo the nut the whole bolt sheared off in my hand - cue waiving about of the loose end with half a bolt / nut still attached. Gonne have to drill the remains of the bolt out to get the earth spade connector free.

First question - am I right in deeply suspecting the obviously poor earth connection as likely source of my problems?

My second question is, If I can get the earth spade connector out, can I just rebolt it back to the body in another location - there's a 2nd unused bolt hole about 2 inches down from where the old one connected - I don't fancy having to re-drill the remainder of the bolt (about half?) out from the current hole as well.

After 10 months trouble free motoring thats a set of spark plugs, an ignition coil, and a broken front suspension spring all in the last month.. My patience is wearing a bit thin even though I love the car to bits

Apologies for the long post. Advice / sympathy much appreciated at this point

 

[Argonought]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Sounds like you're on the right track to me

You'll get a far better earth on a clean connector/bolt hole as long as you make sure the metal you're connecting to isn't in any way insulated from the rest of the chassis. You could check this with a multi-meter if you have one.

 

[HSSB]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Cheers argonaut.. I think I just needed a bit of re-assuring that I'm on the right track - strangest combination of electrical 'gremlins' I have ever come across

The bolt breaking like that was odd - on closer examination is seems to have corroded part way through, weakening it - not what I would expect, especially on an 02 car, and that must have been effecting the earthing 'capacity', surely?

Oh, forgot to mention, I also had the fuel filler flap snap off in my hand a couple of days ago - its been a months worth stilo ownership I'd rather forget really - I've owned less troublesome Lancia's, and thats saying something

Will post a progress report back to the forum tomorrow, though its off to the dealer if I manage to fix the earth but the fault still re-occurs...

 

[Argonought]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Oddly enough, the corrosion is a good sign as you often get corrosion at points of electrical resistance. In other words it shows that current has been passing through the earth strap and yet it was never fixed properly.

I'll be amazed if it doesn't solve your problems.

Bad luck with the filler cover. The trick is to keep it lubricated and to take care when opening (not that that helps you now )

 

[HSSB]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Hiya Argonaut, anyone... Progress report.

Earth lead refitted (properly) and the car now runs again, had battery off for reset, did 3 clean starts, *but* has not cured my electrical gremlin. Still getting the ticking relay under the dash, accompanied by zeroing fuel guage, culminating in the ABS, ESP etc.. etc.. warning light show every now and again

I has occurred to me that maybe there's a short somewhere with the fuel sender unit, but not sure how I'd get at that - under the spare wheel?

Probably going to bite the bullet, get the cheque book out & book in at the dealers tomorrow now.

Thanks for the advice anyway

Cheers

Mark

 

[Argonought]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

That's bad luck

Think I'd still have a play around D4 if you think you nearly cleared it before.

Can't say I remember anyone having problems with shorts at the tank end of the car but as you say, the clue must be with the fuel gauge.

 

[HSSB]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Okay, so nice longish run to work and back today (c30 miles), and the problem has greatly reduced (though not solved) with the new earth lead - still clocked the journey as about 70 miles though due to intermittent showing of 'the gremlin'.

Booked into Fiat for Monday morning to have it put on the examiner. Earliest they could fit it in.

This gives me the weekend to have a final good going over (D4 etc..) of everything I can think of..

I notice today the problem is 95% prevalent when stationary or at slow moving speeds - is there a clue there maybe?

Got to get this sorted - the car is just *so* good when running right I don't want to lose faith in it like I am at the moment.

Cheers!

 

[1.8Stilo]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

ABS and ESP lights come up when the battry has low voltage? How old is the battery? thought about replacing it for an uprated.. i had simular problems!

also have you seen the thread which suggest using uprated earth leads?

 

[HSSB]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Is that the thread where fitting extra earth leads was being discussed? Been thinking seriously about that.

As for the battery, I don't know the age (only had the car 11 months), but thought was in pretty good nick - the indicator remains good, its lean with no sign of leaks, I've never had any reluctance starting, and the car gets lots of long runs to recharge (assuming alternator is working okay)

...then again, problem occurs more at low revs (when alternator is boosting it less?), so you could be on to something..

Bit reluctant to fork for a new one on a chance with the possibility of a big bill for something else looming though. Do you think I'd see a difference if I whipped the current one out & gave it an overnight boost charge? Will try it anyway..

Got access to a spare almost new battery , but it'd be off my g/f's Cinq, so I doubt that'd cut the mustard

 

[Deckchair5]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Sounds like you have main relays dropping out through low voltage, on the same lines as Argo and 1.8 are saying. ABS and fuel gauge are CANBUS but a low voltage dropping out a relay or two will chop the feeds at the body computer

See if you can do some tests
Have a multi meter?
First off, check the voltage across the battery terminals- engine and ignition off - 12v
Check voltage again with engine running- 14v
Check again with engine running and an electrical load on like headlights and heated rear screen. Shoudn't drop below 12.5v with engine at 2000rpm. See what happens at tickover. See what's happening to the voltage there when relay is clicking

Now an earth integrity check
With enigne running, put the pos lead of the meter on the neg lead of the battery and put the meter neg lead on a good earth on the engine (not the other end of the lead). Should be near zero. Anything above 0.5v and there's a problem


I notice today the problem is 95% prevalent when stationary or at slow moving speeds - is there a clue there maybe?
This is when a dead cell in a battery could show up as the alternator will be struggling to keep voltage up, probably fail, voltage too low and relay drops out. Load reduced- voltage up- relay clicks in. Finaly ABS warning as voltage is too low

See if you can tell which relay is clicking by putting your finger on each relay in turn on the body computer/fuse panel. It's not easy as it resonates to the others but the cycling one should give you a fair knock

Have you been blowing bulbs? Do the headlights dim and then get brighter as you rev up? Is the alternator making a lot of noise like it's working hard?

Give us a report back. Could be lots of things but it might just be a simple dead/dying cell in the battery- ie runs all right as long as the revs are up.

 

[HSSB]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Many thanks - thats good advice.

I have a multi-meter knocking around somewhere - moved house not long ago, and lots of stuff still in boxes. Will dig it out tomorrow..

Haven't noticed a dimming of headlight bubs, and I've not yet had a bub blow.. Had rear foglight warning come up a few weeks ago, but that turned out to be dodgy contacts in the bulb holder - cleaned it up & its been fine since.

Fell pretty cheered at this advice - will duck out of work early tomorrow afternoon & give this the advice & checks a go while its still light

Thanks! & I'll post results tomorrow night. Keep your fingers crossed for me!

 

[Deckchair5]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Had rear foglight warning come up a few weeks ago, but that turned out to be dodgy contacts in the bulb holder - cleaned it up & its been fine since.
Yep red herring
Good luck!

 

[Deckchair5]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

As you'll want to get on with this in day light, if the voltages check out ok then find that clicking relay and remove it, clean up the contacts if you can with contact cleaner and reinsert it. Often just poor contacts can cause relay problems. If it's still bad then replace the relay

 

[HSSB]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

See replies in blue below...

Sounds like you have main relays dropping out through low voltage, on the same lines as Argo and 1.8 are saying. ABS and fuel gauge are CANBUS but a low voltage dropping out a relay or two will chop the feeds at the body computer

See if you can do some tests
Have a multi meter? Found it!
First off, check the voltage across the battery terminals- engine and ignition off - 12v - checks at 12.5v
Check voltage again with engine running- 14v - checks at 13.9v
Check again with engine running and an electrical load on like headlights and heated rear screen. Shoudn't drop below 12.5v with engine at 2000rpm. See what happens at tickover. See what's happening to the voltage there when relay is clicking 13.8v at tickover with load, 13.9 @ 2000rpm

Now an earth integrity check
With enigne running, put the pos lead of the meter on the neg lead of the battery and put the meter neg lead on a good earth on the engine (not the other end of the lead). Should be near zero. Anything above 0.5v and there's a problem sub 0,5 vault when ticking over until the gremlin kicks in, at which point it goes nuts then settles back when gremlin clears - I think we may have isolated the issue here?


I notice today the problem is 95% prevalent when stationary or at slow moving speeds - is there a clue there maybe?
This is when a dead cell in a battery could show up as the alternator will be struggling to keep voltage up, probably fail, voltage too low and relay drops out. Load reduced- voltage up- relay clicks in. Finaly ABS warning as voltage is too low

See if you can tell which relay is clicking by putting your finger on each relay in turn on the body computer/fuse panel. It's not easy as it resonates to the others but the cycling one should give you a fair knock. Its the main T13 relay (panel to right of dash). Have taken out & cleaned it up, then replaced, but no real difference...:bang:

Have you been blowing bulbs? Do the headlights dim and then get brighter as you rev up? Is the alternator making a lot of noise like it's working hard?

Give us a report back. Could be lots of things but it might just be a simple dead/dying cell in the battery- ie runs all right as long as the revs are up.

. See above - I think it's clearly an earthing problem. Question is which one? - there's 3 running off a triple connector on the earth terminal on the battery.

One thing I have noticed is that the problem is far, far worse when the car is warmed up to normal running temperature, first few miles in the morning have been relatively (though not entirely) trouble free, then it all seems to come in with a vengeance when a) you are warmed up and b) you drop below c1100 rpm for any reason.

Could it be heat = metal expands and what was an okayish earth connection breaks down & gets worse do you think?

I'm going to search out the various abarth earth threads and then check the darn lot *thoroughly* tomorrow.

Many, many thanks for all the advice! Will let you all know any results

 

[Argonought]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Definitely sounds like an earthing issue as we thought from the start and the relay would seem to be a red herring (relay is clicking due to earthing failure).

Give all the earths you can see a good twist and tug. Check the one near the alternator as this has been mentioned before.

Keep checking the earths with the multimeter as Decks has suggest and I reckon you'll find the problem (most likely obvious when you see it) l

 

[Deckchair5]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Now an earth integrity check
With enigne running, put the pos lead of the meter on the neg lead of the battery and put the meter neg lead on a good earth on the engine (not the other end of the lead). Should be near zero. Anything above 0.5v and there's a problem sub 0,5 vault when ticking over until the gremlin kicks in, at which point it goes nuts then settles back when gremlin clears - I think we may have isolated the issue here?

Yep that's the one! Call the hit squad

I'd put a new earth lead in, they're cheap and cheerful. Have you checked the condition of contact where the earth lead connects to the engine called C2? That would be prime suspect on my hit list

C2 is the battery to engine earth
C3 is the battery to body earth


T13 is the door lock relay but it's a big jobby at 50A so it's not surprising it's the first to step out of line. That explains your doors locking/unlocking

 

[HSSB]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Cheers - especially for the diagram :worship:

Its all the agenda for tomorrow now

C2 is tricky to get at properly from above (assuming I identified the correct wire before that is).. Reckon my best bet is to remove the undertray and check from underneath? Would be easy enough - I moved to a house where the garage had a decent pit installed

Would a new earth lead be a Fiat only part or something I could get at a smaller outlet, or even Halfords (though I do hate getting ripped off)? Not exactly big city resources out here in South West Wales even though this is one of the bigger towns ...

 

[Deckchair5]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Well, I'd see how good/bad the contact is at the engine as it may just be a case of surface corrosion there. Any doubts and I'd replace it, Fiat dealer only I'd think or make your own if you're really keen

 

[HSSB]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Update:

Well, much easier to get at from underneath - and I renewed some very corroded screws holding on the undertray at the same time

..the earth lead itself looks in good nick all the way - no breaks in the covering, no kinks etc...

I did, however, hit a problem when trying to check the connection to the engine - the flamin' bolt holding it on is completely immoveable - even after over 4 hours of trying with various length spanners /ratchets etc..:bang:

Have dosed liberally in penetrating oil for a final time for the day - going to leave that to soak in and see if I can have another go tomorrow - maybe see if I can use something to get some extended leverage? Failing that, as its booked in at Fiat on Monday anyway, I may ask them to renew the earth lead - probably get it off in a whisker with an air-wrench.

Still, its a step forward...

 

[Argonought]

re: Abarth - Earth Lead? [AND coil pack]

Just thought I'd mention it's not a good idea to remove an earth connection with the battery still connected. If adding extra earths then it doesn't matter.

If the earth lead is that difficult to remove then the chances are it's a good connection anyway. My experience of dodgy earths is that if you can twist them, from under the bolt, with just your hand then you know you've got a problem.