Technical 1995 Ducato 230 2.5tdi damaged and Timing Belt / tensioner issue

[tomnewo]

Good afternoon,

Apologies for this long post but I thought it would be better to put all the information out there so that the issue has the best chance of being resolved.

So some 15 months ago I purchased an A class motorhome that is based on the vehicle above, as a precaution I wanted the timing belt changed but due to it's size my usual mechanic could not do the work so another garage (Garage No 1) I use occasionally agreed to changed the belt outside his premises (because he could not fit the vehicle inside either).

All was well for 11 months and around 1500 hunderd miles before I had an issue, about 5 miles into a trip there was "pop" from under the bonnet accompanied by white smoke, the vehicle started twice after that but there was no throttle.

As mentioned my usual mechanic could not accomodate it, Garage No 1 could not accomodate either so I was left with Garage number 2 who had the room and had MOT'd the vehicle for me a few months previously.

Garage no 2 diagnosed a fuel pump issue due to some "dirt" being present in the fuel and suggested a new pump, now they are not readily available so I managed to get the pump (along with the injectors) refurbished at a well regarded business. The pump was returned as new and installed BUT garage No 2 called me with bad news....they had fitted a new cambelt and started the vehicle but the symptoms remained exactly as before and they had now decided to lift the rocker cover only to find that valves had come through the shims / tappets...great ! So I had spent quite a bit of money on the fuel pump / injectors (oh and a new tank) to be sure the fueling system was clean only to be told there was no difference...the only saving grace here is that the person who reconditioned the pump had told me that he would not have believed the vehicle was running at all judging by the amount of "dirt" in it.

Unsurprisingly I was not comfortable with garage No 2 taking the head off and consulted my usual mechanic for advice, luckily he arranged for the use of a larger premises to take the head off to see what needed to be done, well the head was not in a good state and the camshaft had been damaged but the pistons / conrods were fine so the head was taken to be refurbished with a new camshaft / valves etc.

The head was refitted along with a new water pump (why not when everything is off anyway), timing belt tensioner and upgraded timing belt tensioner damper.

Here's the "new" problem, when fitting the new belt and turning the engine twice the mechanic noticed that the belt was loose so loose that the belt tensioner could move freely within the housing in the water pump, the belt kit is the correct one (153 teeth) for the engine whch is 8140.47 with the flame cold start but the tensioner does not tension the belt at all, we have viewed Dave Newell's excellent video and when he removes the tension tool at 9.09 the tensioner tightens the belt up well......that does not happen on my vehicle as previously stated the tensioner can move freely within the water pump housing.

We called up the suppliers and they said it was possible that the block / engine could have been changed for a 2.8 at some point and that may be the reason, they requested the engine block number (which we could not find) and could not help us any more without it, my mechanic says the belt is too long and I have ordered a different kit with 152 teeth to see if that makes a difference which he will try that on Tuesday.

This is really annoying and I don't want to be looking at repairing heads again anytime soon if I can help it !

I was wondering if any of you have seen this before or could offer any advice ? If the engine / block has been changed to a 2.8 which belt should it be ?

Thanks in advance.

 

[bugsymike]

Good afternoon,

Apologies for this long post but I thought it would be better to put all the information out there so that the issue has the best chance of being resolved.

So some 15 months ago I purchased an A class motorhome that is based on the vehicle above, as a precaution I wanted the timing belt changed but due to it's size my usual mechanic could not do the work so another garage (Garage No 1) I use occasionally agreed to changed the belt outside his premises (because he could not fit the vehicle inside either).

All was well for 11 months and around 1500 hunderd miles before I had an issue, about 5 miles into a trip there was "pop" from under the bonnet accompanied by white smoke, the vehicle started twice after that but there was no throttle.

As mentioned my usual mechanic could not accomodate it, Garage No 1 could not accomodate either so I was left with Garage number 2 who had the room and had MOT'd the vehicle for me a few months previously.

Garage no 2 diagnosed a fuel pump issue due to some "dirt" being present in the fuel and suggested a new pump, now they are not readily available so I managed to get the pump (along with the injectors) refurbished at a well regarded business. The pump was returned as new and installed BUT garage No 2 called me with bad news....they had fitted a new cambelt and started the vehicle but the symptoms remained exactly as before and they had now decided to lift the rocker cover only to find that valves had come through the shims / tappets...great ! So I had spent quite a bit of money on the fuel pump / injectors (oh and a new tank) to be sure the fueling system was clean only to be told there was no difference...the only saving grace here is that the person who reconditioned the pump had told me that he would not have believed the vehicle was running at all judging by the amount of "dirt" in it.

Unsurprisingly I was not comfortable with garage No 2 taking the head off and consulted my usual mechanic for advice, luckily he arranged for the use of a larger premises to take the head off to see what needed to be done, well the head was not in a good state and the camshaft had been damaged but the pistons / conrods were fine so the head was taken to be refurbished with a new camshaft / valves etc.

The head was refitted along with a new water pump (why not when everything is off anyway), timing belt tensioner and upgraded timing belt tensioner damper.

Here's the "new" problem, when fitting the new belt and turning the engine twice the mechanic noticed that the belt was loose so loose that the belt tensioner could move freely within the housing in the water pump, the belt kit is the correct one (153 teeth) for the engine whch is 8140.47 with the flame cold start but the tensioner does not tension the belt at all, we have viewed Dave Newell's excellent video and when he removes the tension tool at 9.09 the tensioner tightens the belt up well......that does not happen on my vehicle as previously stated the tensioner can move freely within the water pump housing.

We called up the suppliers and they said it was possible that the block / engine could have been changed for a 2.8 at some point and that may be the reason, they requested the engine block number (which we could not find) and could not help us any more without it, my mechanic says the belt is too long and I have ordered a different kit with 152 teeth to see if that makes a difference which he will try that on Tuesday.

This is really annoying and I don't want to be looking at repairing heads again anytime soon if I can help it !

I was wondering if any of you have seen this before or could offer any advice ? If the engine / block has been changed to a 2.8 which belt should it be ?

Thanks in advance.

Do you mean the spring loaded tensioner pushes out to it's max. travel under quite firm pressure from the spring or it is just floppy. Is it possible the tensioner spring has corroded solid in the housing?
Generally I have had to force the tensioner to push the spring all the way back into the water pump housing quite firmly and lock into retracted position under a fair bit of tension before removing the old belt,( though I see yours had broken?) then with belt correctly fitted and timed releasing the tensioner nut/bolt allows the tensioner bearing to firmly push the belt tight before being locked into place and rechecked , engine turned manually at least two full revolutions and then all rechecked before starting engine.
On a different note and not to "cheer you up" I have in the past rebuilt several of these engine and robbed bits from Iveco mini bus broken Sofim 8140. series engines at the time also and in all cases where the cam belt has broken and head has been removed for valve damage etc. that wasn't the end of the damage, due to the close tolerance on diesel engines at least one con rod was found to be bent / shortened by the impact, and had to be replaced requiring a total engine rebuild.
Though I see your usual mechanic has checked pistons and conrods and it seems that you have been a little lucky.
In other words with the head off the engine where normally you would see two pistons up or down equally, one pair wouldn't match in piston height due to con rod damage, it can often only be a couple of mm but it means what ever you do that engine will not run correctly, if for no other reason than compression causing an out of balance on that cylinder with the damaged con rod.
My suspicion would have been when garage no2 fitted new belt, the "shim/tappet damage" you describe occurred, the only other argument would be the injector pump fault wasn't the cause of your breakdown and poorly diagnosed though hard to prove.

 

[tomnewo]

Hi thanks for this.

The timing belt tensioner is brand new and Iveco made, the original had seized in the old water pump housing.

I agree about garage No 2 but have written it off and console myself by saying the fule pump would have needed to be done at some stage anyway, i just need it back up and running now with the correct belt etc !

 

[bugsymike]

Hi thanks for this.

The timing belt tensioner is brand new and Iveco made, the original had seized in the old water pump housing.

I agree about garage No 2 but have written it off and console myself by saying the fule pump would have needed to be done at some stage anyway, i just need it back up and running now with the correct belt etc !

Some people have had issues with different guide and tensioner bearing diameters and in the dim and distant past I seem to recall fitting the belt and then sliding one of the bearing on due to belt being fairly tight, though once fitted and adjusted then turned a few times by hand it worked correctly and did many thousands of miles with no issues.
It seems only a few years ago there were lots of these engines around in Iveco Daily and Fiat Ducato form and parts were readily available on eBay etc, a lot seemed to be sold for export like Nissan Cabstars so I suspect, as they were all pre ECU they will be used for many years to come on some foreign shore, whilst we are forced onto expensive non repairable EVs whilst they carry on driving our old vehicles, polluting in non regulated Countries.