Technical Ducato 2.5 TDI 1995 - timing belt help needed

[pieri70]

Hi everybody
I'm doing maintenance to my ducato 2.5 TDI 1995 caravan.
I disassembled all the pieces to access the cambelt, except the last metallic cover
I followed this nice video



I'm stuck at the pulley positioning and flywheel lock
I tried to turn the engine shaft slowly until the cam pulley notch correspond to a mark on the top of the engine (a sort of arrow) but there is no way that the flywheel lock pin (8mm but also smaller) enters the hole on the gear chassis to lock the motor shaft movement.
Also turning the engine until the cambelt pulley notch returns to the aligment sign don't solve my problem.
Also the hole on the fuel pump pulley don't correspond to a hole on it's back, on the engine, so also in this case the locking ppin (5mm) can't insert and lock pulley.
Do anyone have some piece of service handbook to show me this process or can give me some hint?

Thanks
Pietro

 

[bugsymike]

Hi everybody
I'm doing maintenance to my ducato 2.5 TDI 1995 caravan.
I disassembled all the pieces to access the cambelt, except the last metallic cover
I followed this nice video



I'm stuck at the pulley positioning and flywheel lock
I tried to turn the engine shaft slowly until the cam pulley notch correspond to a mark on the top of the engine (a sort of arrow) but there is no way that the flywheel lock pin (8mm but also smaller) enters the hole on the gear chassis to lock the motor shaft movement.
Also turning the engine until the cambelt pulley notch returns to the aligment sign don't solve my problem.
Also the hole on the fuel pump pulley don't correspond to a hole on it's back, on the engine, so also in this case the locking ppin (5mm) can't insert and lock pulley.
Do anyone have some piece of service handbook to show me this process or can give me some hint?

Thanks
Pietro

What is the engine series no. i.e 8140.** etc. So I can send photos.
I have Autodata diesel data for 1995 but it doesn't give belt details only a bit about pump timing.
I also have a 2012 Autodata timing belt book which goes back to 2002 2.8 Sofim engine which is better for belt fitting on basically the same engine in 2.5 form, the main difference is you would need to carefully mark injector pump position as the later pump is common rail and injection is controlled by ECU.
I have worked on 2.5 Sofim and 2.8 in Ivecos in the past and generally not a great deal of difference.
If all else fails and engine is running happily at the current timing marks, I would "tippex" carefully mark the exact position of all pulleys after gentle turning engine in the normal direction to the firing position TDC on No.1 cylinder with no slack on the belt coming from cam,injector pump and finally to crankshaft pulley.
Two other points, first count the number of teeth on the old belt compared with the new one as there were different diameter tensioner and guide pulleys used.
Finally and most critical after timed to exact marks and tensioner and all other bolts correctly tightened, then turn the engine over by hand at least two full revolutions and bring it up to recheck timing marks. Reason for this is then even if timing not spot on at least turning the engine on the starter will not destroy the engine as has been known for people to do!!!

 

[pieri70]

What is the engine series no. i.e 8140.** etc. So I can send photos.
I have Autodata diesel data for 1995 but it doesn't give belt details only a bit about pump timing.
I also have a 2012 Autodata timing belt book which goes back to 2002 2.8 Sofim engine which is better for belt fitting on basically the same engine in 2.5 form, the main difference is you would need to carefully mark injector pump position as the later pump is common rail and injection is controlled by ECU.
I have worked on 2.5 Sofim and 2.8 in Ivecos in the past and generally not a great deal of difference.
If all else fails and engine is running happily at the current timing marks, I would "tippex" carefully mark the exact position of all pulleys after gentle turning engine in the normal direction to the firing position TDC on No.1 cylinder with no slack on the belt coming from cam,injector pump and finally to crankshaft pulley.
Two other points, first count the number of teeth on the old belt compared with the new one as there were different diameter tensioner and guide pulleys used.
Finally and most critical after timed to exact marks and tensioner and all other bolts correctly tightened, then turn the engine over by hand at least two full revolutions and bring it up to recheck timing marks. Reason for this is then even if timing not spot on at least turning the engine on the starter will not destroy the engine as has been known for people to do!!!

Thank you @bugsymike !

The engine on the document says 8140.47

I know the difference between JTD and this, I already made two times cambelt service on my Multipla 1.9 MJT..

I was looking for the flyweel lock because otherwise I can't unscrew the crankshaft bolt with a hand wrench.

But today I saw another video where they used a pulse wrench and they marked the bolt head and the service pulley to tighten the bolt with the same force more or less (It's 200Nm I think)

Today I will go and look for the timing of the pump pulley, it has a hole and should be blocked on the engine with a pin.

Then I will and see how it goes with other signs on the cam and cranck pulley.
And for sure I will mark all the positions with a marker!

Anyway I will thank you a lot if you can give me some further hints/photos..

Ciao!

 

[bugsymike]

8140.47​

2499​

116 PS (85 kW)/3800​

245 N⋅m (181 lb⋅ft)/2000​

R4, DI, turbocharged, intercooled​

OHC/8​

Fiat Ducato Iveco TurboDaily Renault Messenger​

1994-2002 1994-2000 1994-1996 ​

Sorry for picture quality, the 2012 book gives some detail on the 8140.47 but the 1995 book is only for the earlier version.
Re crankshaft pulley I would use an impact /pulse wrench to slacken it as it should not disturb the timing of bottom pulley.

 

[pieri70]

Thanks, super! Some picures are blurred but I think I understand most of the concepts.
The second picture is what fits well I think..
The first is for high pressure pump for JTD engines (no need to timing)
So on the second there is no reference to crankshaft lock pin..
It only says to align the camshaft sprocket timing mark to the mark on the cylinder head mark and try to insert the pump pulley timing pin into place.
If this don't work, turn crankshaft 1 turn CW and retry.
At this point the crankshaft sprocket should align with the mark on the lower cover protection.
Am I ok?

One thing I don't understand. How can I screw the crankshaft bolt to 200Nm if I don't lock the crankshaft???

 

[bugsymike]

If you chock the front wheels and put in 2nd or 3rd gear with handbrake on that should work, failing that remove starter and jam a small spanner in the teeth. Don't forget to remove .
With fan belt pulley off you should see the timing belt gear on crank timing mark.

 

[pieri70]

With fan belt pulley off you should see the timing belt gear on crank timing mark.

I don't understand this last
There is no fan belt pulley, but the alternator/water pump one, number 6 in second picture
Under that there shoul be a small pin used as a reference point for the timing

 

[Communicator]

I don't understand this last
There is no fan belt pulley, but the alternator/water pump one, number 6 in second picture
Under that there shoul be a small pin used as a reference point for the timing

I think that @bugsymike is showing that he is a "senior citizen". "fan belt" is old terminology for the auxilliary belt. This used to be used to drive the engine cooling fan, dynamo (which preceded alternator) and perhaps water pump, which could be called a "coolant circulator".

Do take care with the crankshaft timing marks. On my more recent 2.8jtd the crankshaft timing mark is a hole in the crankshaft sprocket. There is a keyway at 180 degrees to the hole.

 

[pieri70]

I think that @bugsymike is showing that he is a "senior citizen". "fan belt" is old terminology for the auxilliary belt. This used to be used to drive the engine cooling fan, dynamo (which preceded alternator) and perhaps water pump, which could be called a "coolant circulator".

Do take care with the crankshaft timing marks. On my more recent 2.8jtd the crankshaft timing mark is a hole in the crankshaft sprocket. There is a keyway at 180 degrees to the hole.

Ok, my English language knowledge is somehow rusty and I don't know many way for call things...
And yes I saw also the hole mark on some videos.
In some comments I read that the keyway must be at twelve o'clock..
Today I will make some test before tear down the belt.
Thanks again

 

[pieri70]

Eureka!
I took my wife with me and I tried to move little by little fw/RW near the timing positions with her pushing the pins and they went in place!
8mm on the crankshaft on top of the Gear box near the flywheel and 5mm on the pump pulley.
All timing points are fine now, only the crankshaft one is a little not corresponding (half a teeth)
I was able to unscrew the big bolt with 36mm wrench by hand.
Super!
They asked me 800 euros to do this work here in north Italy. Crazy people

 

[bugsymike]

Me being lazy it is quicker to write fan belt than alternator pulley at 70years. Being a "senile/senior citizen" .
You shouldn't rely on the "locking pins" when undoing or retorquing crankshaft @ 200Nm as really they are only timing pins not engine locking pins and could easily bend or snap.

 

[pieri70]

Me being lazy it is quicker to write fan belt than alternator pulley at 70years. Being a "senile/senior citizen" .
You shouldn't rely on the "locking pins" when undoing or retorquing crankshaft @ 200Nm as really they are only timing pins not engine locking pins and could easily bend or snap.

The one that goes inside the gearbox is 8mm diameter and I think it is subject to cutting action more than bending action. Anyway I will try with sweetness

 

[pieri70]

Ok
I made some marks on the old belt on the timing points. Then I transferred them on the new belt to control its fitting.
Assembled all in places except covers and I made some turns of the krankshaft.
The cam pulley mark was in place all timed up.
Bottom cover up, Fan pulley up
Torqued to 200Nm with flywheel lock on.
V belt up and I started the engine.
All fine, works like a clock!
Just last question.
I didn't change water pulley and I think it would be nice to flush the old coolant off and replace it.
I think there is dirty water inside.
Don't seem to be a particular coolant.
Do you know if I can use red or green coolant?
Do you know how much? Are there some purging valves?
Thanks again for your super help

 

[bugsymike]

If you are going to change the water pump don't undo all your good work if the cambelt tensioner spring etc. sits in the base of the water pump or does my memory fail me?
Also unlikely as you seem quite careful, but it has not been unknown for for cambelt cover to be misaligned causing belt damage and later failures.
Re antifreeze I would say if you are flushing the system it should be fine to replace with the latest good quality product at the strength to suit where you live.

 

[pieri70]

The cover is not really spot on.
Under the bottom cover on the engine there is what seems a removable cover from where the crankshaft comes off, there is another mark it seems like a triangle carved into the alu plate.
The external vertex of that triangle align perfectly with the pin mark on the crankshaft.
So another fantastic fantasy work of our Italian engineers
I won't remove the water pump but I will flush the coolant.
I read somewhere that red and green coolant go with alu or cast iron...
Anyway some problems gone some other arrived..
This shaft where the brake mouth pads moves are snapped..
P.s.
Found them on Amazon for 10€

 

[bugsymike]

Either antifreeze should be good for aluminum and cast iron as you said, main thing is even if temp is not very cold where you are the antifreeze works as a corrosion inhibitor so keep it in all year round.
Pain about the brake caliper sliders, make sure the new ones are identical as some dimensions vary.
I always put copperslip grease on sliders and in threads even though they come with a form of locking agent on the new bolts, others have different thoughts on this but it has worked for 50 years or so for me.

 

[pieri70]

Hello
the brake caliper sliders were perfect. 10 euros on Amazon and the pain went away
I put some white nautical grease on them to work fine.
Regarding the antifreeze, is it ok to flush it from a hose on the bottom of the radiator, fill the circuit with common water, make a short travel, flush dirty water and then refill with coolant?
Is there any air purge valve to use or is the circuit auto purging?
Today I will go to the periodical control needed to legally use the caravan. Finger crossed
Thanks again

 

[bugsymike]

We used to use a rad flush solution then drain it out to prevent damage, sometimes running engine with a hose in and the top and running water out at the same time until it came clean , but nowadays it is probably not a good idea unless thermostat is removed.
Often most of the muck is in the radiator core it's self, so with cold engine and top and bottom hoses disconnected "back flush" run water through in the opposite to normal direction.
You may be able to run it through the engine block the same and once clean refit hoses and replace antifreeze, I don't know specifically about air bleeders on your system, generally I will fill and keep checking hoses as engine warms up and when thermostat opens you can feel the water in the hose change temperature, but keep checking until you are sure all air out of system.