Technical 1995 Fiat Ducato Hymer 2.5 diesel motorhome

[mancalledhorse]

Hi everyone!
I cant start my 1995 Fiat Ducato 2.5 diesel motorhome. I had a travelling mechanic look at it and he said its either the mechanical fuel inj pump or the injectors themselves.
So after watching a vid on Youtube about changing the cam belt on a Fiat Ducato, I decided to try and take it off myself.
I know I have to lock out the cam belt, but what I'm confused about is the injection pump pully, do I have to put another locating pin in there to lock the pump so that it wont jump out of place and mess the fuel timing up? And if I do this what happens to the fuel timing when I take off the mechanical fuel injector pump? Not sure if I would need to lock out the timing pump if I'm taking off the pump?
I would also change the cam belt at the same time!

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Thank you,
Regards,
Karl

 

[bugsymike]

Hi everyone!
I cant start my 1995 Fiat Ducato 2.5 diesel motorhome. I had a travelling mechanic look at it and he said its either the mechanical fuel inj pump or the injectors themselves.
So after watching a vid on Youtube about changing the cam belt on a Fiat Ducato, I decided to try and take it off myself.
I know I have to lock out the cam belt, but what I'm confused about is the injection pump pully, do I have to put another locating pin in there to lock the pump so that it wont jump out of place and mess the fuel timing up? And if I do this what happens to the fuel timing when I take off the mechanical fuel injector pump? Not sure if I would need to lock out the timing pump if I'm taking off the pump?
I would also change the cam belt at the same time!

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Thank you,
Regards,
Karl

It will depend on which engine you have, do you know what engine Series etc.
Firstly what were the original symptoms? It does sound a little like your mechanic is hedging his bets. Pump failure is rare and on older engines like this, unlike a single injector stopping a modern common rail engine, one injector failing would be like a single spark plug on a petrol engine failing, it would still start and run albeit lumpy and very unlikely for all four to fail at the same time.
What make injector pump is it? Depending on make is how to lock it, the Bosch one there is a bolt at the top front nearest the belt end that you take the plate out and the bolt goes in deeper to lock it. Double check all this as it was some time ago.
Does it have an electrical solenoid on it and is there power getting to it when ignition is on? I am assuming at that age there is no actual immobiliser fitted. Assuming the engine is still all together, if power to the solenoid assuming this isn't really old with a "kill" cable, I would remove the solenoid and needle valve to test operation and whilst it is out work the hand primer on the auxiliary pump and fuel should come out where the solenoid was fitted.
This is probably enough to be getting on with. I have included a 1995 Data manual plus cam belt timing data for the later model 2.8 Ducato and for the Iveco version as it goes back to 2000 and the 2.5 is similar to the early 2.8. Check the engine Series numbers for comparison.
Note there are often different length cam belts and pulley sizes so check exactly what you remove and if the later style be 100% sure how you reassemble spacers etc around the cover where it affects the timing tensioner. After fitting belt correctly turn engine by hand at least two full revolutions before trying to start engine as if wrong it doesn't just bend the valves , it does the con rods also!!!

 

[mancalledhorse]

Hi, thank you so much for your reply and with the diagrams!

I think originally I tipped a drink by accident on the blue relay in the cab and I thought it was this that caused the non start but someone told me that this relay was nothing to do with the starting etc think it was light or wiper, it was left a long while standing, without starting and I assumed it was because I spilt that drink but I've tested the relays and they all seem ok. I have also changed the diesel from the tank but still the same.


This is the details I found on the Fiat plate when I took off the engine bonnet cover.
The chassis number Fiat Auto S.P.A
ABE 0687
ZFA 230000*05142264
MOTORE 8140.47
VERSIONE 230BEMBB

The only details I found on the mechanical fuel pump was on the top section were two separate numbers ;
1 465 530 746
3.6 13815

I've attached the first pic with serial details , the second and third pics are looking on top of the Mechanical fuel inj pump.
In the the 4th and 5th pics, would that be the fuel heating valve ? sorry I dont know the tech name.

In the 6th pic I'm holding the wires that came off the solenoid start/stop valve and they come from the two black spade connectors that come from that brass fitting. So I also undid the black spade connectors and tested that side for the 12volts but it also wasn't there either?? the problem is that these wires dont have any voltage on the wires with the motor ignition on . Is correct to say that they should have 12V on the wires that would supply the voltage to the solenoid stop/start valve?
Should this voltage be there permanently when the ignition is on or does it only have the 12volts when the engine is cranking over?

In the last 7th pic I disconnected the solenoid start/stop valve and tested with the 12V battery and the center pin is not moving in/out but last year I checked this and it was moving until I lost the spring from inside of it, but with the 12 volt connected I think it should still retract the pin when I touch pin side to the negative terminal. Not sure where I can purchase this solenoid or the spring from now, maybe best if I get a new solenoid first before attempting to change out the inj pump? Would you know where I could purchase a start/stop solenoid?

It use to more or less start first time. When the mechanic had a look at it they disconnected the alarm system as it goes off if you havent used the key fob within a certain time to switch it off prior to starting the engine. As the battery was not very good, it was disconnected. I have now bought a new battery but still doesn't start.

Thank you for helping me, I really appreciate it!

Regards,
Karl

 

[bugsymike]

From the numbers 8140.47 it sounds like an early version of what I think is the better engine.
In your photos that is not the stop valve!
What you need is a photo of the back of the high pressure injection pump to find the stop solenoid, it should look like my first picture. It has a single wire to it, the one in picture has 082 written upside down on it and is just above where the four high pressure pipes come out to go to the injectors. It can be tested as I mentioned before, but be careful and don't lose any bits. Normally if a 12 volt supply is touched to that you should hear a little click which is the solenoid opening to allow fuel into the injector pump to start the vehicle, so is also the kill switch when you turn ignition off.
Your second two photos are of the flame start device, which basically uses fuel from the injector returns and is heated so it catches fire inside the inlet manifold it sits on to aid cold starting, it mat be colder where you are, but personally I have never needed to use it on any of my Sofim engines even in a boat in mid Winter with frost all around the gunnels.
By the way when you say you changed the diesel in the tank what did you actually do? As if you introduced air into the fuel system the engine will not start just from that , even if you fix the original problem!!!
By the way although it is of an Iveco in my last photo in my first reply to you , I think that is nearest as a guide if you decide to do the cambelt, but personally I would check these other things first and don't disturb the timing or injector pump as you may introduce more problems.
If you go on eBay and type Bosch Injector Pump Stop Solenoid there are several listings, but you need to ask the seller if correct for your engine and they may need to know details of the pump etc. but they are readily available.
I am a bit concerned about some of the loose wires in your photos.
I don't mean to be rude but "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" is something to be aware of when diving into engines.
So I would say, first check the solenoid operation and if working , next you need to know a clean supply of good diesel is getting to the injector pump, once you know that and the fuel is clean with no air bubbles, next I would slacken slightly the injector supply pipes at the injectors and then get someone to crank the engine and once you see fuel with no bubbles coming out around each injector then tighten those pipe nuts and I would expect engine to start, so keep your hands out of the way of any moving parts.

 

[Communicator]

Any use? Link to Bosch solenoid.

 

[bugsymike]

Any use? Link to Bosch solenoid.

OP appears to be looking at lots of different areas but his mechanic hasn't pin pointed the fault yet.

 

[mancalledhorse]

Hi Mike,

Thank you for your help!

I'm following the steps you gave me. I really thought that was the start/stop/ valve! Not sure what I took off, do you know what it is?
But now you've told me it 's not and with the diagram you sent I can see the one you said that is. So at the moment I'm trying to undo the start/stop valve, like the diagram you sent me.
(the real one....lol) but its very tight and not much space in there. Also I didn't see any wire going to the solenoid, would it definitely need a 12v supply going to it?
Just hope I dont have to take off the radiator to get in there because of lack of space.
Once I've done this I will crack the nuts on the injector pipes on top of the rail and bleed any air out with someone turning the ignition. Would I have to crack them one by one or all together?

When I drained out old diesel fuel I undid the circular cover on the floor inside the cab and used a suction pump, When it still didn't start I also changed the fuel filter.

Than you so much for your continued help, appreciated!

Kind regards,
Karl

 

[Communicator]

OP appears to be looking at lots of different areas but his mechanic hasn't pin pointed the fault yet.

Bit belated, as I have been involved in other matters.

I was thinking of the picture for ID rather than purchase. The site to which I linked also has exploded diagrams of various typesof injection pumps.

 

[Communicator]

Hi Mike,

Thank you for your help!

I'm following the steps you gave me. I really thought that was the start/stop/ valve! Not sure what I took off, do you know what it is?
But now you've told me it 's not and with the diagram you sent I can see the one you said that is. So at the moment I'm trying to undo the start/stop valve, like the diagram you sent me.
(the real one....lol) but its very tight and not much space in there. Also I didn't see any wire going to the solenoid, would it definitely need a 12v supply going to it?
Just hope I dont have to take off the radiator to get in there because of lack of space.
Once I've done this I will crack the nuts on the injector pipes on top of the rail and bleed any air out with someone turning the ignition. Would I have to crack them one by one or all together?

When I drained out old diesel fuel I undid the circular cover on the floor inside the cab and used a suction pump, When it still didn't start I also changed the fuel filter.

Than you so much for your continued help, appreciated!

Kind regards,
Karl

If I may answer on @bugsymike 's behalf: 1. Yes, ignition switched, so that you can stop the engine if it starts. 2. Suggest cracking the nuts at the injectors one at a time. You need to check that as suggested, all of the air has been bled out.

 

[bugsymike]

Hi Mike,

Thank you for your help!

I'm following the steps you gave me. I really thought that was the start/stop/ valve! Not sure what I took off, do you know what it is?
But now you've told me it 's not and with the diagram you sent I can see the one you said that is. So at the moment I'm trying to undo the start/stop valve, like the diagram you sent me.
(the real one....lol) but its very tight and not much space in there. Also I didn't see any wire going to the solenoid, would it definitely need a 12v supply going to it?
Just hope I dont have to take off the radiator to get in there because of lack of space.
Once I've done this I will crack the nuts on the injector pipes on top of the rail and bleed any air out with someone turning the ignition. Would I have to crack them one by one or all together?

When I drained out old diesel fuel I undid the circular cover on the floor inside the cab and used a suction pump, When it still didn't start I also changed the fuel filter.

Than you so much for your continued help, appreciated!

Kind regards,
Karl

Is it possible the wire has broken off the start/stop solenoid, it may be worth checking for that first.
If you are sure you have correctly identified it, then as I and @Communicator said it has a 12 volt supply to it when the ignition is on to open the solenoid valve and allow fuel into the pump to start engine.
If it is tight you may need a correct size socket and bar to release it.
Personally, if you have allowed air into the system I would slacken all the injector pipes at the injectors a little, then as fuel comes out of them with no air bubbles tighten each in turn and engine should start. If battery is good then it shouldn't take very long , especially if you have a hand primer on the low pressure pump that feeds the Bosch injector pump.
I am guessing on your age of vehicle there is no electric pump as in newer models.
You may be able to follow the fuel supply pipes going to the filter as a guide.
By the way, there is no "fuel rail" as in common rail on later engines, you are looking at four individual high pressure pipes coming from the injector and going to the four injectors under the plastic cover with Fiat written on it in one of your photos.
Finally do not put your finger on the fuel coming from the slackened injector pipes as it is very high pressure!!!

 

[jackwhoo]

Do not remove the stop solenoid unless you Know it is faulty.

If it is as photo above Supply battery voltage to the electrical terminal -if it clicks then it is most likely ok. If it doesn't click replace it but make sure everything is 100% clean , if any dirt falls in pump then it will likely be ruined.

Sorry I read thread from the beginning and see you have removed stop solenoid and it appears broken.
Check is live to terminal negative to body of solenoid (Not the moving pin)


When the pin is out the pump is in stop condition. Pin retracted pump is in run position.

In your very first picture is that what you I'm screwed from injection pump body?

 

[Communicator]

Is it possible the wire has broken off the start/stop solenoid, it may be worth checking for that first.
If you are sure you have correctly identified it, then as I and @Communicator said it has a 12 volt supply to it when the ignition is on to open the solenoid valve and allow fuel into the pump to start engine.
If it is tight you may need a correct size socket and bar to release it.
Personally, if you have allowed air into the system I would slacken all the injector pipes at the injectors a little, then as fuel comes out of them with no air bubbles tighten each in turn and engine should start. If battery is good then it shouldn't take very long , especially if you have a hand primer on the low pressure pump that feeds the Bosch injector pump.
I am guessing on your age of vehicle there is no electric pump as in newer models.
You may be able to follow the fuel supply pipes going to the filter as a guide.
By the way, there is no "fuel rail" as in common rail on later engines, you are looking at four individual high pressure pipes coming from the injector and going to the four injectors under the plastic cover with Fiat written on it in one of your photos.
Finally do not put your finger on the fuel coming from the slackened injector pipes as it is very high pressure!!!

Keep diesel out of any cut or open sore. I had a friend in the trade who developed a permanent sore on his leg, due to diesel soaked overall leg coming into contact with an open cut.

 

[bugsymike]

Keep diesel out of any cut or open sore. I had a friend in the trade who developed a permanent sore on his leg, due to diesel soaked overall leg coming into contact with an open cut.

Some people get dermatitis from diesel so wear gloves and wash hands.

 

[mancalledhorse]

Is it possible the wire has broken off the start/stop solenoid, it may be worth checking for that first.
If you are sure you have correctly identified it, then as I and @Communicator said it has a 12 volt supply to it when the ignition is on to open the solenoid valve and allow fuel into the pump to start engine.
If it is tight you may need a correct size socket and bar to release it.
Personally, if you have allowed air into the system I would slacken all the injector pipes at the injectors a little, then as fuel comes out of them with no air bubbles tighten each in turn and engine should start. If battery is good then it shouldn't take very long , especially if you have a hand primer on the low pressure pump that feeds the Bosch injector pump.
I am guessing on your age of vehicle there is no electric pump as in newer models.
You may be able to follow the fuel supply pipes going to the filter as a guide.
By the way, there is no "fuel rail" as in common rail on later engines, you are looking at four individual high pressure pipes coming from the injector and going to the four injectors under the plastic cover with Fiat written on it in one of your photos.
Finally do not put your finger on the fuel coming from the slackened injector pipes as it is very high pressure!!!

Hi,

Thanks for your reply!

Can I ask if the start/stop valve has a 12v supply wire connected to it? As there is no wire connected to mine? Maybe its fallen off, trouble is where did it come from in the engine? Do you think that the supply wire to the Start solenoid valve came from the starter motor supply cable? Maybe it was a jumper wire attached from the starter motor feed supply wire and connected also to the start solenoid valve?
Could this be what the the problem is, no voltage wire connected to the start solenoid valve?
Do you know where I could get an electrical diagram for my engine?

I couldn't spend time on the motor today but I will tomorrow!

Also I would like to thank Communicator and Jackwhoo for your help!
I will test start solenoid valve tomorrow and if ok, will then crack nuts one by one to bleed air out.

Jackwhoo, In my first pic I sent, I have taken out what I thought was the start solenoid valve but Mike informed me that it wasn't and he sent me a pic of the correct one, its got a number (082) upside down on it. If the one I took off is not the start solenoid valve, can you tell me what I have taken off? As I dont know what it is I have taken off.
I have attached some photo's of the one I took off and temporarily screwed it back in.
The first pic below is what I took off and I thought it was the start/ solenoid valve! The second and third pics below looks like what Mike referred to in his diagram that he sent me Is the start/solenoid valve. So I'm really not sure what that is, left side in the first pic below.

Thank you so much everyone for all your continued help and safety concerns, really appreciated!

Kind regards,
Karl

 

[bugsymike]

Your second and third photos of the start solenoid, you say has no wire to it?
I would not remove the solenoid just yet, but try putting a 12 volt supply from the battery to just gentle touch to that solenoid terminal. You should hear a very quiet click, if so that should be the fuel valve opening allowing engine to start by allowing fuel through the pump up to the injectors. It will need a constant supply as long as you want the engine to run.
If the injector nuts have not been undone vehicle may start assuming nothing else has been altered.
If they have engine injectors will need bleeding.
However remember if engine does start it will only stop again if that wire is removed!!!! So be careful.
Assuming that works then you need to look around nearby to find the broken off end of that solenoid wire to fix it. It must be nearby.
Re that other electrical item, if on the injector pump it may be related to increasing the engine speed slightly when cold, as in it pushes against a throttle position on pump, but I am not sure re that.

 

[Communicator]

Your second and third photos of the start solenoid, you say has no wire to it?
I would not remove the solenoid just yet, but try putting a 12 volt supply from the battery to just gentle touch to that solenoid terminal. You should hear a very quiet click, if so that should be the fuel valve opening allowing engine to start by allowing fuel through the pump up to the injectors. It will need a constant supply as long as you want the engine to run.
If the injector nuts have not been undone vehicle may start assuming nothing else has been altered.
If they have engine injectors will need bleeding.
However remember if engine does start it will only stop again if that wire is removed!!!! So be careful.
Assuming that works then you need to look around nearby to find the broken off end of that solenoid wire to fix it. It must be nearby.
Re that other electrical item, if on the injector pump it may be related to increasing the engine speed slightly when cold, as in it pushes against a throttle position on pump, but I am not sure re that.

I submit that the"other electrical item" is a "waxstat" used to reset the manual advance used when cold starting. See on "Motor Roam" website. Scroll to "Injection timing advance:-". An explanation of the flame starter is also given on that site.

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks @Communicator re wax stat, I didn't realise it was the advance it affected.
The flame starter I am more familiar with as they were used on Perkins 4.108 engines which I had in a CF Bedford and a Mk 1Transit (both I would describe as economical snails 38mpg and 65 mph max ) I also put one of those type Perkins in one of my boats with good results.

 

[mancalledhorse]

Your second and third photos of the start solenoid, you say has no wire to it?
I would not remove the solenoid just yet, but try putting a 12 volt supply from the battery to just gentle touch to that solenoid terminal. You should hear a very quiet click, if so that should be the fuel valve opening allowing engine to start by allowing fuel through the pump up to the injectors. It will need a constant supply as long as you want the engine to run.
If the injector nuts have not been undone vehicle may start assuming nothing else has been altered.
If they have engine injectors will need bleeding.
However remember if engine does start it will only stop again if that wire is removed!!!! So be careful.
Assuming that works then you need to look around nearby to find the broken off end of that solenoid wire to fix it. It must be nearby.
Re that other electrical item, if on the injector pump it may be related to increasing the engine speed slightly when cold, as in it pushes against a throttle position on pump, but I am not sure re that.

Hi everyone,

I have some really great news...it's started!.....Yesssss!

I have followed your great advice, I connected up a temp wire from the 12v, initially it didn't start, so I then I went to the next stage as you advised.
I cracked the left side injector nut and it fired up...can't believe it...thought I was hearing things!!....lol, fantastic news! I then continued to bleed the others.
This problem has been going on for some time, a couple of years now.
I will now search for where the supply wire to the start solenoid came from, I was thinking a very long time ago I did find a wire on the floor and didn't know where it had came from. So that must have been the last time I could start it.

I'm going to attached a test wire to the starter motor going to the solenoid, to see if it came from there.

Thank you so so much Mike, Communicator and Jackwhoo for your continued help!
Thank you Communicator also for the link you sent me regarding the waxstat on the Motor Roam website, which I found very interesting for other also info.
Can I ask, are you all members on here with your own campers, or do you work for the site?
A big big thank to all you guys! If I had followed my mechanic I would now have had the fuel pump off, paid for another one put it back on, then it still wouldn't have started. So the next thing I would have been doing is trying to get the injectors out!! I would have ended up in a world of problems!!

Thank you everyone! this site is so great by having people like yourselves on it!
Kind regards, (Yes Its started!!)

 

[bugsymike]

Very pleased for you.
Personally I have never owned a Motorhome, but have been in the motortrade since 1969 and now retired, but always found it a satisfying job being able to fix things and even now I have four diesel vehicles.

 

[mancalledhorse]

Very pleased for you.
Personally I have never owned a Motorhome, but have been in the motortrade since 1969 and now retired, but always found it a satisfying job being able to fix things and even now I have three diesel vehicles.

That's very kind of you helping me Mike!
Yes it must be a wonderful and satisfying that you are able to fix things and you have also improved my knowledge!

Thank you
Regards