Panda (Classic) Snatch Panda

andyholli said:

Fix it again tomorrow.

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A. I think i will share my initial thought when look on photo above. Which actually lie with Andy B. questions about the plugs and Andy H indication - injectors
It might be just the flash effect but for me it looks like:

question 1 - is the fuel pressure right? - looking from right :
Cyl 1 - looking good - moderate ammount of deposit,
cyl 2 - bit more
cyl 3 - much more deposit
cyl 4 - much much more of coke build-up

If i would had to choose i would indicate cyl 4 as that one which had the misfire, but why?

Nice work kolza - I agree your diagnosis (but I cheated) - pulling the lead off cyl 4 made no difference to the rough running and the thermometer pointed at 3 and 4's exhaust manifold branches' showed lower temperatures relative to 1 and 2.
I suspect that often 'one fault' has a few contributing issues and it's not always a black and white - broken component/fixed component story.
I'm approaching this from the point of view that a refreshed cylinder head, cleaner piston crowns and new gasket may make a marginal difference- but could also be a better base for refreshed injectors and sparky stuff to do their thing.
Marginal gains and all that.

Plus Italy in 2017 is calling to me... I really hope you and Ula are seriously thinking about doing that trip again too..

If the 3&4 had lower temp - weak coil pack?

Could be. - Wasted spark system sharing two coil packs wouldn't that mean 1 & 4 share a coil pack?

- Reading your post again, re fuel pressure. - Fuel enters the rail at cyl 4 and the filters and pick up mesh were both checked out a year ago when installed so it could be a fuel supply issue but at the moment I still suspect electrical more than fuel, but we will see..

Correct 1&4, 2&3

Injector resistance 13.7 - 15.2 Ohm

Did you check the valve stem oil seals Andy? If it's during idle and rapid throttle depression it could be the cause of the coking and misfire..

I remember the smoke cloud created at the bottom of the Sport Village descent. - I dropped off the head today for a light skim, valve seats re-cut and the stem seals renewed.
I had a look down the inlet ports to see if my Aldi grinding tool could be put to good use but it's all so tiny in there I don't think I'll chance it..
Bloke at the engineering shop laughed when he saw the head and called it "cute". - I assume he meant "bitchin".

Yes that's just modern terminology for the stated, get with the times Andrew.

So reading this, is this miss you speak of kinda like just a slight hestitation if you try set off quickly and happens only with alot of throttle. And if you kinda launch a little more gently and then roll into the throttle it doesn't do it....?

I ask cause it sounds just like my 1.2 16v cinq conversion, and i spoke to several people in centoland that had the same issue. Could never workout why it did it I would say at this point that I changed every single sensor on the engine, it also had new coils, plugs, leads - basically everything and it never went away, I just learnt to live with it in the endm was easy to drive it so it didn't do it. Everything came from the same donor car for that too (everything bar i changed the engine loom for a nicer condition one).

Also, dropping the 1.4 bottom end in and using the early 1.2 16v ecu to run it works but it doesn't run as well as the 1.2 does. The 1.4 16v ecu runs it much better but you need fly by wire conversion, doable but hassles.

Sorry if thats not really applicable here, I've not read your whole thread so not sure on exact spec, just assuming you are running mk1 punto 16v ecu and engine.

Thanks blu73 - It was running fine and now it isn't so I don't think there's an intrinsic fault, just something gone a bit wobbly.

Anyway got the head back today -


All for £40. Bargain. And got to poke around their workshop where there was nothing smaller than this one but the biggest were a pair from a yacht, each head the size of coffee table. - Probably not £40.

Peering down the Punto ports I noticed these cracks or slots in each centre web:


Each inlet tract looks the same and as though they've always been like that. Odd though, anyone any theories?



Just got to slap it all back together now.

Oh, yes, and find that misfire..

andyholli A question if you will, what exhaust manifold and downpipe is Snatch running and did you have to relocate the radiator to get it all to fit?

Currently looking at options for John's car, the huge Brava manifold with cat would require removal of the front panel to fit and I'm not really wanting to spend a load of time and money buying random manifolds until I find one that works! I have the added complication of needing two lambda sensors aswell, but that can be overcome once I find something that will go in the space.

Of course I am now a complete expert on 8v 999cc engines - especially heads after my run in with the OMGHGF panda parade.

Yours I'm afraid is outside of my area of expertise being a 16v. Sorry!

My layman knowledge does assume though its totally ****ed.







*I thought we were de-catting panda1408!

panda panda said:

*I thought we were de-catting panda1408!

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That is the aim, but looking at the space left for the manifold to go in I am not sure if the Punto decat manifold will fit, rather than spend £150 to find out I thought I would see what other potential options there are.

Try find a mk1 punto 85 manifold.. can modify a downpipe to meet up with whatever exhaust is under the car. That would result in decat as the punto had the cat under the car behind the engine in the section after the downpipe.
I might have a pic of one somewhere from when I did my cinq 16v swap - I'll have a look when at computer.

As Blu says Freddy- this is my Punto 85 manifold:



Which fits without moving the radiator (just) but I also run it with the heat shield on top which has made contact under duress with the back of the radiator fins even though the engine mounts are all good and I hit it first with a lump hammer.

Bravo(a) downpipes are very cheap (£20 ish) and have a lambda boss and flexi joint:



Does the engine management need both pre and post sensors to run properly? - just a thought.

andyholli said:

Peering down the Punto ports I noticed these cracks or slots in each centre web:


Each inlet tract looks the same and as though they've always been like that. Odd though, anyone any theories?

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Looks like a poor casting and inclusion possibly. Naturally that thin section would be the hardest part of the casting to fill and it's where the 2 bits of molten steel have met but not properly merged. That's my guess anyway.

If oil is getting into intake through one of the cracks then that might also add to the running issue and the puff of smoke out exhaust. If the cracks have propogated to an oil way that is. Have you got any magnetic crack detection spray? I have some which I could bring to an upcoming meet but understand might all be a bit late by then!

Thanks Si
I agree with your guess. All intakes were clean of oil so I don't think there's an issue. I considered cleaning up all the rough finishes but the marginal gains, if any, don't seem worth it - apart from 'because race-car'.
Hopefully the stem seals will fix the smokiness and it's nice to see the innards to know they're all fine.
If you were Freddy and John would you take the head off now while the engine's out..?

andyholli said:

Does the engine management need both pre and post sensors to run properly? - just a thought.

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Nope, needs first one to run, but will throw a code without the 2nd.. All the 2nd lambda does is check the CAT is working, but it will throw a code. I don't think it would cause a limp mode or anything though. If it were for the fact lambdas are heated you could in theory just plug one in and leave it out the exhaust and it would not throw codes. I know a bodge for clearing the EML when you decat a modern car is the just unscrew the 2nd lambda and put foil over the end and screw it back in and on most cars (maybe not really new ones) that works too..

What ecu are you using Freddy? For it to be 2 lambdas it must be a later engine, which in turn would be fly-by-wire throttle?? You doing pedal swap and everything?

Thanks Andy and Chris, I will get searching for a mk1 manifold any ideas where I might find one. We are going stainless for the rest of the system so that is no problem. One question though, will a mk1 manifold bolt up to a mk2 head ok?

Chris, I am using the whole setup from a 2001 mk2 Brava, the same setup as a mk2 Punto I believe, so fly by wire and returnless fuel system. The ecu is mounted onto the throttle body.

It is a lot more work, but mk1 Puntos are quite thin on the ground now so someone needed to try a mk2! I have converted the pedal and will be also adapting the fuel tank to take the proper sender unit with built in regulator. Wiring is straight forward as there is no body computer to worry about.

Andy, I didn't even think about taking the head of Johns engine, I can't think of a reason to really, its fairly low mileage and showed no signs of burning oil or any other issues.

Exhaust is same but inlets are different as far as I know.. buy a exhaust mani gasket and try it to be sure before buying actual manifold ?
If you find someone breaking a mk1 punto 16v you might consider getting the cams as well. Little bit livelier although totally not end of the world to not have them.
But yes they are getting hard to find now. I'd bet them 150quid 421 for the 16v on ebay, direnza iirc, would not take up more room than a stock mani if all else fails