General Urgent help needed please

[multiplied]

Hi, i have a multipla jtd 115 2004 model.
driving on motorway at 70mph, got beep on dash and following warning:
"ENGINE CTRL FAULTY" "CONTACT GARAGE". and engine light permanently on.
phoned AA, Error was turbo solenoid valve,guy cleared the fault, but it soon came back on and we had to drive the remaining 130 miles home from our honeymoon in Scotland in limp mode.

(previously few months ago after suffering limp mode, but no warning light, i took off and cleaned EGR valve and car ran like new).

I ordered a new turbo overboost valve from shop4parts and it arrived mid-week, removing the old one last Thursday evening i noticed the larger of the two tubes from the overboost valve (the red one) had a chaff and hole in it.
I got some new tubing from Fiat (its smaller diameter on outside and inside).

This morning i fitted the new overboost valve and new tubing and cleared the fault with Fiatecuscan software.
Fiat ecuscan showed error: P0236-BOOST PRESSURE (2)
" Boost pressure A circuit range/performance
the reason for this fault is that ECU has received very low signal from the sensor".

Took car for a spin, but beep from dash shortly after, and same warning and limp mode once again!.

IM AT A LOSS now, thought i had this nailed, especialy replacing a tube with hole in it.

Im desperate to get this fixed ASAP.
We go on a family holiday to Devon a week today , some 300 miles with 4 kids, top box and trailer, so limp mode not an option, and i simply cannot afford to go to a dealer.

Anyone any ideas?
-could the smaller diameter tubing be the problem?
-could be something else entirely?, EGR again?

Any help on this very, very much appreciated as im running out of time to get this fixed.
Please help.
thank you
Mark

ps. i donated to the forum, how do i get discount code for shop4parts?
thanks

 

[multiplied]

Update: i took off the smaller diameter hose and repaired the original red hose (the one that goes down to below radiator onto a round steel disc shaped object).

took for a run and fault came back.

i believe the fault is actualy there prior to the beep and message as power is sluggish and car sounds rough, almost like blowing exhaust near engine, but its not blowing.

if someone knows the possible cure- please advise

 

[klytus]

the overboost valve u talk about isn't an overboost valve
i thought it was myself but it is not
i think you will find the problem is the boost sensor but it is not in the same location as the solenoid you talk of
to get to the boost sensor take off the fiat jtd plastic cover
look at the middle of the back of the engine u will find a plug with 3 wires plugged into the sensor which bolts on to the intake manifold
its held on with a 10mm bolt remove the bolt and pull the sensor out
it will be full of black egr soot or oil and will have died or be faulty
replace that and try i am certain you will have full power back
well u should have
peace

 

[Peat]

The sensor on the rear of the inlet manifold is not the Turbo Over-boost valve but the MAP sensor (manifold absolute pressure). The over-boost valve is on the end of the 'red pipe' as stated.

Have you checked the actuating arm on the turbo to make sure its free? It's adjacent to the- quote "round steel disc shaped object"- unquote.

Peat

 

[multiplied]

hi Peat, thanks for reply.
i havnt checked the actuator, i have no idea what it is, but guess its some sort of rod that moves?
so its near the circular metal part that the red pipe goes to down near rad?.
what am i looking for?, please be descriptive, as im only guessing.
is it above the metal circular object (what is that called?).
looking at the engine from front of car is it on right or left side?
Also would a sticking actuator make the car sound "rough"?.
if its this actuator, what is the remedy?.
sorry for so many questions

thanks

mark

 

[multiplied]

hi Klytus, thanks for replying.
Peat says the sensor you are on about is the Maf sensor, are you sure this could cause my symptons and error code?, is it below egr valve?.
could it be my egr valve stuck open?, thus making car sound rough also?

i have 5 evenings after work to have this sorted, or wer not going on holiday, so panicking now!

many thanks

mark

 

[Peat]

Jeez. Read what you have written. How are you going to fix things if you cannot get the terminology right?

I did not say MAF sensor but MAP sensor I even opened the acronym out. The MAP sensor is here; Item 4 ->

http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/multiplaowners/photos/album/1910274264/pic/1819492709/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

On the Turbo the 'actuator arm' can just be seen above the 'vacuum chamber' to the right of centre. It has a linkage at it's top is threaded at the lower end for adjustment and is viewed from underneath the car passenger side. ->

http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/multiplaowners/photos/album/1352954495/pic/2044905769/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

Hope this helps.

Peat

 

[multiplied]

hi Peat,
i apologise for my lack of knowledge as regards the name of obscure parts, i have only ever done basic maintainance/repair/servicing to my various cars over the years.
clearly owning a multipla i do need to brush up on things, but with a lack of any maintainance manual for the car, it is valued help from people like yourself that is the only way forward, so thank you for your assistance.

ok, the actuator, im almost certain i have it located, i guess the round metal object is the vacume?, and on my multi, directly above and attached to this is the actuator with a threaded part to it.
i used a very long thin drill bit to push down on the rod from the top, and the rod moved fairly freely and sprung back.

i had my wife start the car and apply some revs, but it did not move on its own
(not sure if it would under no load with approx 3000 revs).

my next step is to re-fit the old overboost valve (just incase i have a duff
new one, and the fault was the hole in tube).

do you think there is a possibility it could be egr valve stuck in open position?, bitch of a job to take off, but i will try anything.

Also, is there a chance a fuse that corresponds to the plug going into overboost valve could have blown?, or is that not possible given my symptons.
car definately sounds "rough", as before she was sweet as a nut.

we did over 1,200 miles as smooth as you like in Scotland prior to the beep and warning message.

just trying to give as much info as possible to you, and indeed anyone else reading this, as someone else will surely of had exact same symptons.

I have never had such a troublesome car in such a short period of time, egr limp mode, oil level sensor more indecisive than a woman with pmt, an inherited rounded off sump plug... and now this problem, all in 5 months.
im also dismayed at the sheer ammount of rusty parts/nuts/components for a 6 year old car... i would normaly hate a car like this by now and want to get shut, but i love the multi, shes different, shes quirky and a great ride when shes going strong.

i need her fixed, so any help is genuinely very much appreciated

 

[multiplied]

just saw this, interesting article , from this, it sounds as if it could indeed be MAP sensor.

1. In order for the ECU to control the electro-valve and hence turbo pressure it measures many things like fuel and air temperature, throttle position etc. but it also needs to know what pressure the turbo generates. This is done by the MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor.
2. The MAP sensor is the same on 105, 110 and 115, and is in the same position, on the inlet manifold. It senses the atmospheric pressure through a tiny pinhole in its casing, and it senses the turbo pressure in the inlet manifold by having a short pipe that fits into a hole in the manifold. It measures the difference between turbo and atmospheric pressure, so the signal it feeds back to the ECU represents how much the turbo has increased the manifold pressure above atmospheric.
3. Atmospheric pressure is measured by a sensor built into the ECU.
4. Terminology: Fiat are not consistent with their names for parts, which doesn’t help. They never mention MAP sensor; they call it turbocharging sensor, supercharging sensor or excess pressure sensor on the Maintenance CD. On ePer they call it something different again, but if you put its part number from ePer into Google, you will find that all the parts suppliers call it a MAP, and their photos match the pictures on the CD.

so even Fiat cant decide the name of their own parts lol

 

[Peat]

Try blocking off the EGR valve.

http://www.spangerum.com:7080/navi?COUNTRY=012&GRP_COD=102&SBMK=F&DRIVE=S&SGS_COD=11&MAKE=F&COMM_MODEL=MUL&CAT_COD=1F&MOD_COD=186&SGRP_COD=59&ALL_FIG=0&LANGUAGE=3&PREVIOUS_KEY=SUBGROUP_7&NEW_HTTP=TRUE&ALL_LIST_PART=0&SB_CODE=-1&KEY=PARTDRAWDATA&PRINT_MODE=0&EPER_CAT=SP&GUI_LANG=3&WINDOW_ID=1

Refering to the diagram - you will see item 6 (lower of the two) which is a steel gasket between the inlet manifold input pipe on the left (fixing point out of sight) and the outlet from the EGR, convoluted pipe (5).

Either get a new gasket or use the item in place and using a piece of sheet metal make up a gasket to the same dimensions as item 6 without the central hole i.e. a blanking plate.

Place this between convoluted pipe (5) and inlet manifold pipe on the left with existing gasket to the inlet manifold side (fixing point out of sight).

It's a little tricky but can be done with patience.

This procedure will effectively remove the EGR valve from the equation and it will not be necessary to remove the blanking plate.


Peat

 

[multiplied]

Hi Peat,
thanks for all that info, i have saved the diagrame in pdf and your walkthrough as txt doc, so i will tackle it tomorrow evening.
i did think of blocking off egr few months ago when i cleaned it, but i had no idea where to block it, so thanks for all that info.
blocking egr seems to make a lot of sense as it causes many problems and i dont like the idea of my engine having to basicaly eat its own s***.
If egr is stuck in open position, even blocking off- will this still show a fault?, or once blocked off does it not matter if egr valve moves or not?
sorry for all questions, i know egr will be redundant once blocked off, but will ecu still think i have a fault if its stuck in one position?
im sure you will know, so if i have to clean the egr to move even though going to be blocked, i may as well do all together, so advice appreciated.

As for MAP sensor, i have that taken off now and will replace as fairly sooty and cost only £26.

modern cars hey.
i have a 17 year old pug 205 1.8 diesel, no rust, almost 100k on clock, never let me down in years. use it to go to work and back doing 200 miles weekly.
the multi is our lifeline as a family of 6 (4 kiddies), had an espace prior to the multi- Renaults a lot lot worse.

 

[Peat]

If egr is stuck in open position, even blocking off- will this still show a fault?, or once blocked off does it not matter if egr valve moves or not?
sorry for all questions, i know egr will be redundant once blocked off, but will ecu still think i have a fault if its stuck in one position?
.

As far as I'm aware there is no fault reporting from the EGR valve, otherwise it would be reporting a fault every time it opened even in full working condition and I have certainly not had a fault condition even when the damn thing was permanently stuck open before dispensing with it. I believe MAP sensor failure will throw up a fault condition.

Once done you should notice a difference in performance. i.e. smoother and better fuel consumption.

I have to say that I prefer the old type non-sensor engines but then I'm biased, being 69 and feeling 100!

Peat

 

[multiplied]

hi Peat.
i have found the problem!! (thank god)
its egr related.
ok, got home from work and started to dismantle egr from engine.
the bottom pipe off egr that is congulated at top, then dissapears into a curve with a cloth shield on..... it has snapped through completely!.
No wonder i had a rough exhaust blowing noise!!!.
the diagramme of egr you gave me link to shows the pipe, but doesnt list it or give it a number, it is the pipe below sealing gasket 6 with washer 12 and screw 14 going into it.
I guess its off to stealer to order pipe (even blanking egr im sure i need this intact).
I doubt fiat will have this in stock, so i think its a weld it for now job so we can go on holiday sat morning, i hope it can be welded.
There is a degree of movement from this pipe to where it connects down below, so i guess movement/vibration and/or poor design has caused it to fracture (its gone where the congulated pipe becomes smooth).

So anyone else gets the P0236 ERROR- CHECK EGR VALVE AND ASSOCIATED PIPEWORK- ESPECIALY IF ENGINE SOUNDS ROUGH!.

Thanks for all your help Peat.
i will keep you posted on how i get on
many thanks
Mark

 

[multiplaspain]

Congrats multiplied!!
If yourself or a moderator can change the title of the first post, sure it will be more useful than "Urgent help neede"

 

[Peat]

Well at least you have the reason for your woes. Unfortunately they are not yet over.

If I am correct it is the heat exchanger outlet into the EGR that has sheared and it is extremely unlikely you will be able to weld the crack and make it mate up as is was previously unless there is a good degree of flexibilty.

The Heat exchanger is £170 or there abouts.

IMO your best bet is to blank as I described earlier and also blank at the exhaust end thereby eliminating the EGR and heat exchanger altogether. Something you can do and a much cheaper solution to achieve the same result.

Best of luck
Peat

 

[multiplied]

hi Peat.
the broken pipe is the one that is approx 10 inches long and 1 inch diameter, you sure its so expensive?., £30 would seem extortionate to me for such a small flimsy metal pipe.
i fully intend making the egr obsolete, i have made a damn good blanking plate out of 3mm thick stainless steel sheet.
looking at the diagrame of egr you gave me link to, do i block the egr at the bent pipe coming out of right hand side and if so egr side or the other?.
i get what you say about blanking both ends, where would i blank the other end though?, surely if at egr end of below pipe, it will blow from further down up to egr and through break in pipe?.
the bottom end (to seal) is just an exhaust type flanged bracket, so not sure how good a seal i could get with trying to blank down there.
please advise further.

i dropped off the broken pipe after work today to a guy who does welding for a garage, he said he will insert a tube inside the broken pipe and then weld it up.
it should be easy to align up as the fractured part is shaped to eachother and yes there is fair movement / play along pipe to the bottom exhaust type flanged bracket joint.

even if the repair job turns out very good (heres hoping), i would still like to blank both sides if safe to do so, so both egr and repaired section of pipe are redundant, so please do explain where both blanks need to be.
i pick up pipe after work tomorrow, so if you have replied by time i get home, i will attempt the job tomorrow eve.
many thanks
mark

 

[multiplied]

still got same problem!
new map sensor fitted
new overboost valve fitted
cracked pipe welded & not blowing at all
vaccum hose split sorted

what else could it be?

 

[Peat]

It could be clogged vanes in the turbo. Not a disaster; can be cleaned with Innotec Turbo cleaner around £36 a kit. Details:-

http://www.innotecworld.com/InfoSheets/10%20Sets%20and%20Systems/Turbo%20Clean%20Set.pdf

Peat