Technical swaping my 1.4 100hp for an Abarth 1.4

[amen]

Ok i need all input on this. I have come across a used abarth engine for approx 1500 Euro. I dont know how many miles on it, or where it came from, or under what conditions it was run. I will find out the details on monday. Aside from this, what I want to know is if this swap is straight foward. Does everything else connect, or is there a lot of detail involved?
All opinions are welcome!!

 

[cainy1989]

do think you might need the abarth ECU and possibly body computer, its not just a case of a straight swap as the ECU you have at the minute isn't expecting a turbo bolted on

 

[amen]

do think you might need the abarth ECU and possibly body computer, its not just a case of a straight swap as the ECU you have at the minute isn't expecting a turbo bolted on

I do have that in mind as one of the things im gonna need. Are there 2 ecu's??

 

[loveshandbags]

It's unlikely that the 6 speed on the F500 will be able to take the torque demands of the A500 engine.
A500 has TTC. Some don't engage. Doubt that the Traction control on the F500 1.4 would be up to harnessing the power of the A500 engine.
Re the ECU etc my understanding is that you have the body of the computer and then the ECU. The 'body' holds all the engine details, mileage, etc. whilst the ECU appears to hold the 'mapping'. On the original esseesse uipgrades the kit came with a 'spare' ECU that was generic. More recently these ECUs were not given in the kit and the Dealer had to do the upgrade on the ECU to esseesse mapping - not too sure how successfull this is.
Another option to the TTC is to fit a Quaife - a proper LSD. Would be better than the electronic diff.
Sounds like a great project.
Some on here would give their right arm for that engine.

EDIT: A500 has a bigger front bumper to house the turbo & intercooler. Not too sure if it will fit in a F500.

 

[amen]

It's unlikely that the 6 speed on the F500 will be able to take the torque demands of the A500 engine.
A500 has TTC. Some don't engage. Doubt that the Traction control on the F500 1.4 would be up to harnessing the power of the A500 engine.
Re the ECU etc my understanding is that you have the body of the computer and then the ECU. The 'body' holds all the engine details, mileage, etc. whilst the ECU appears to hold the 'mapping'. On the original esseesse uipgrades the kit came with a 'spare' ECU that was generic. More recently these ECUs were not given in the kit and the Dealer had to do the upgrade on the ECU to esseesse mapping - not too sure how successfull this is.
Another option to the TTC is to fit a Quaife - a proper LSD. Would be better than the electronic diff.
Sounds like a great project.
Some on here would give their right arm for that engine.

EDIT: A500 has a bigger front bumper to house the turbo & intercooler. Not too sure if it will fit in a F500.

Thank you for your input. This is slowly coming together like puzzle pieces.
I wonder if the shop has the tranny also? Do you think this is worth it money wise?? It might be cheaper to sell my 500 and just buy an A500....

 

[loveshandbags]

Thank you for your input. This is slowly coming together like puzzle pieces.
I wonder if the shop has the tranny also? Do you think this is worth it money wise?? It might be cheaper to sell my 500 and just buy an A500....

These engines are not so easy to pick up.
Only seen them on and off on ebay.
Chasing an esseesse very recently.
If I had a 'spare engine' I would have taken the car off them.
Now resorted to a Mito with the A500 engine.
You will need the body computer to go with it and the ECU would be nice - probably one unit - hopefully someone will give better insight.
Gearbox would be good. Only the 5 speed fits in but a six from the GPA will if you lose the A/C. Impressed with the 6 speed on the Mito 155TB not so with the one on the Mito MJ.
5 speed is nice on the A500 and suits the car.
If an A500 gets track use and is chipped where the torque is up at 230Nm+ the gearbox can be inclined to whine. Nice to have a spare one - getting £ now.
If you have spare cash probably yes but I would keep it for an A500 as opposed to a F500.

 

[jrkitching]

Do you think this is worth it money wise?? It might be cheaper to sell my 500 and just buy an A500....

It would certainly be easier to sell your 500 and just buy an A500. Also I suspect you might have a bit of a nightmare trying to arrange insurance for your 'creation'. I'd imagine they'd not look too kindly on the idea of uprating the engine without concurrently uprating the safety features. Add in brakes, suspension, wheels, tyres... then think about resale problems... yup, I'd say it'd be cheaper to swap than upgrade.

But it sure would be an 'interesting' project!

 

[amen]

Although a great find (the engine) a great many things need to be considered. It would be a great project ( for my mechanic at least) but when all said and done, im sure it would be cheaper to just buy an A500 and then mod the f... out of it!!!!!!!
thanks for the input guys!!!!

 

[jnoiles]

It's unlikely that the 6 speed on the F500 will be able to take the torque demands of the A500 engine.

I'm not convinced. There is a commonly held belief that the 6 speed as fitted the 500 will melt into a pile of lava if you put a touch more torque through it. Everyone says this and I'm yet to meet anyone who has actually suffered it. The closest I could come was a guy at a Fiat garage who had lost a diff to the power. This seems to be the weak point. The Fiat powertrain site seems to indicate that the 6 speed could take the torque but not a whole lot more. It's probably a safety margin thing for Fiat. If it's borderline you're likely to get more warranty claims. And also the 5 speed might have better ratios for boosted engines.

And I know for a fact that Quaife make an ATB diff that fits the 6 speed as fitted to the 500. I've got one in mine

A500 has TTC. Some don't engage.

Confused? What's not engaging?

Doubt that the Traction control on the F500 1.4 would be up to harnessing the power of the A500 engine.

Again, I'm not convinced. As I understand it, it's all done on wheel sensors. Slip or no slip, braking etc all as a result of what's happening at the wheel, not the engine side. I've unplugged the wheel speed sensors on mine and the result is dramatic and laugh out loud fun

Re the ECU etc my understanding is that you have the body of the computer and then the ECU. The 'body' holds all the engine details, mileage, etc. whilst the ECU appears to hold the 'mapping'. On the original esseesse uipgrades the kit came with a 'spare' ECU that was generic. More recently these ECUs were not given in the kit and the Dealer had to do the upgrade on the ECU to esseesse mapping - not too sure how successfull this is.

I think you'd definitely need the Abarth engine ECU. I'm not sure that the control systems/body computer are much different. My guess would be that some sort of key code would need to be programmed so that it starts with your key.

Re the ECU mapping, a standard Abarth one would just work out of the box. Or you could go aftermarket ECU. A DTA S60 would do everything you need, including work with the crank and cam sensors and the trigger wheel config it has. It'll also drive the native coil on plug and if you wanted to have fun it supports anti-lag and data logging and wheel sensor based traction and launch control.

Another option to the TTC is to fit a Quaife - a proper LSD. Would be better than the electronic diff.

They are. The single best thing I've done to my 500.

Sounds like a great project.

That it does. I'd be very curious to see how it turns out.

EDIT: A500 has a bigger front bumper to house the turbo & intercooler. Not too sure if it will fit in a F500.

The turbo won't. You'd need to fit the Abarth front bumper. Or you could re-site it but then you're looking at custom manifolds and heat issues. There's not a lot of space in the front of a 500. You could go custom manifold and move the cats to under the car on the straight sections of pipe but then you're into exhaust artistry that won't be cheap.

Also your brakes. The 500 ones are 257mm and the Abarth are (I think) 285mm. The master cylinder is the same on both the 500 and the Abarth 500 so you should be able to pick up the calipers and discs from an A500 and bolt them on.

Or you could go something trickier. I'm currently designing a 273mm brake setup for the front of my 500 using ally bells and bolt on disc rotors with 4 pot wilwood calipers. Lighter, bigger, better cooling and will still fit under 15" wheels. And they'll take a huge range of pads. Or go for the Brembo GT kit which is much the same thing but requires 17" wheels.

 

[jnoiles]

For what its worth I've considered this because I really really don't like the body kits, wheels and look-at-me silliness that comes with an Abarth 500 but I'd like a bit more kick

The other viable option if you want some more power is supercharging. It would suit the gearbox better with its more linear delivery. You'd also have a lot less manifold and ECU grief. If you sacrificed the air con, the smaller rotex would fit nicely in the housing

 

[sixer]

Can't you have a sportier map on your current engine perhaps?

(I pressed dislike post earlier in the thread by accident when nodding off!)

 

[jnoiles]

(I pressed dislike post earlier in the thread by accident when nodding off!)

Lol.

You can put a sportier map on the 1.4 but its a bit of a faff really. You need to pull the ECU and solder a couple of connectors to allow you to write to it. Example below is mine with a before and after remap on a 1.4 (with a new induction kit as well)

 

[amen]

Thanks again for all the info!!!!!!
My idea was to keep the F500 clothing and add a wolf underneath, or should I say a scorpion. Since the turbo wont fit in a F500bumper the whole sleeper idea goes out the window. I'll check to see what other parts are available from the yard (from the A500) and decide. A rough estimate would be that this conversion would run around close to 3K. hmmmmmm.

 

[amen]

Again, I'm not convinced. As I understand it, it's all done on wheel sensors. Slip or no slip, braking etc all as a result of what's happening at the wheel, not the engine side. I've unplugged the wheel speed sensors on mine and the result is dramatic and laugh out loud fun


were exactly are these wheel speed sensors located...:devil:

 

[jnoiles]

were exactly are these wheel speed sensors located...:devil:

Pop a front wheel off and turn the steering to full lock. Have a look behind the hub. You'll see a single bolt or screw holding a small plastic sensor in the wheel. This is the sensor that reads the magnetic signal from the hubs. I'd love to make it fully switchable. The only reason I discovered it was because I was replacing hubs and the supplier sent me the non magnetic ones which look and fit exactly the same. So when I put it all together it complained of esp and abs not working. I thought I'd damaged the sensors so bought a new pair (at £145 quid!). Turns out it was the bearings. Most annoying

 

[loveshandbags]

I'll admit to being a bit 'wayward' myself and personally I wouldn't advise disconnecting the ESP set-up on the 1.4
The US Abarth has the 3 settings On, partially off and Off. The only 'place' that I could see one turning if off is on a track. IMHO the chassis of the 500 isn't good enough to turn if off on the road and for the safety of other road users and yourself I would leave it intact.
On an earlier 'rushed' posting on the TTC - this can be engaged by an Abarth for more control in wet conditions. I reckon it's similar to the All Weather mode in the Mito. There's an explanation of the TTC on the Abarthisti but you would need to take your time reading it and for me I came out the other end none the wiser. In summary on the Track it's left off because it burns the brakes out - on the road in wet conditions - it's a help and reduces wheel spin. This feature does not exist on the standard 1.4
If you end up getting an A500 I would suggest leaving it standard. There are enough horses in the standard set-up for road use.

 

[ahmett]

Supposedly the TC and Hill Holder on the 1.4 also ruins the brake pads which is why i had to change my rear pads at the first 18k service while the fronts were fine. One question, why are the rear pads so much thinner than the front? Cant they just be the same and last much longer as a result?

 

[RobW]

I'll admit to being a bit 'wayward' myself and personally I wouldn't advise disconnecting the ESP set-up on the 1.4
The US Abarth has the 3 settings On, partially off and Off. The only 'place' that I could see one turning if off is on a track. IMHO the chassis of the 500 isn't good enough to turn if off on the road and for the safety of other road users and yourself I would leave it intact.
On an earlier 'rushed' posting on the TTC - this can be engaged by an Abarth for more control in wet conditions. I reckon it's similar to the All Weather mode in the Mito. There's an explanation of the TTC on the Abarthisti but you would need to take your time reading it and for me I came out the other end none the wiser. In summary on the Track it's left off because it burns the brakes out - on the road in wet conditions - it's a help and reduces wheel spin. This feature does not exist on the standard 1.4
If you end up getting an A500 I would suggest leaving it standard. There are enough horses in the standard set-up for road use.

On test drives i actually preferred the 135 hp version than the essesse, just the right amount of power to enjoy

 

[jnoiles]

In summary on the Track it's left off because it burns the brakes out - on the road in wet conditions - it's a help and reduces wheel spin.

Ahh, ok. Cool. That makes sense. It's ringing bells now. People complaining about the way it brakes wheels all over the place to keep the balance, chews through them quickly.

There are enough horses in the standard set-up for road use.

I dunno. If I was a remap away from a decent chunk of power I'd be very tempted to go for it. The chassis would be a little overwhelmed by anything over the standard Abarth power and toque ratings but that can be a lot of fun

 

[amen]

I drove an essesse today, honestly didnt like it! Car was stock but felt very jiterry, as if a trade of existed between hp and handling. Like RobW said I'd prefer the 135!
Aside from shocks and springs, does the A500 have bigger sway bars than the F500?
And if so can the F500 accomodate these bars?