Technical Suddenly slipping clutch, could it be caused by the syncro issues, or fluid leak?

[Duhamel94]

Hi Everyone,

In my Fiat Ducato 14 2002 2.8JTD I'm having a problem with the clutch slipping.

I was on the way to the airport to drop someone off and half way I felt a change in the feel of the clutch pedal and then noticed it started to slip.

This is a brand-new issue, although there are some possibly/likely related issues...

I'll just list them below, the easiest way:

• Dark/black fluid leaking from potentially the gearbox, could be engine oil though which was my first thought
• Gearbox grinding into 2nd and 4th, which has been informally diagnosed at a garage as a syncro issue
• Difficult to find/stiff 1st gear, despite best efforts, 3rd gear is usually found when looking for 1st and when you find 1st it can be tough to put it in gear
• An increasingly loud noise coming from the left wheel area, more details below:

The left wheel problem needs some context:

the brake calipers + pads were recently replaced, so it's unlikely to be a brake issue, also there is no excess heat from the wheel after driving.

The noise from the left wheel does not change in pitch when braking, but when you turn more to the right, the noise is louder.
The noise continues regardless of whether you are accelerating so I don't think it's the CV joint, the outer one at least.
I have inspected the outer cv boot as well which appears to be intact.
This noise actually increased in severity just on the same journey as the clutch started slipping.

The noise is not a clicking like a damaged CV joint but reminded me more of brakes, where there is subtle changes to the noise as the wheel rotates.

The two front tyres were recently changed as well, as in on the weekend, so that's something else to add.

My hypotheses -
Oil from the gearbox or engine has entered and contaminated the clutch, causing it to suddenly start slipping.
Clutch fluid was leaking, ran low and then caused the slipping - I don't believe this is true, I checked the brake fluid reservoir and its full (I thought it might share one with the clutch).

I'm quite handy (but not a mechanic) and willing to learn whatever it takes to fix this myself, but I'm concerned this one is out of my depth, mostly because I don't have a ramp to raise it up on!

I would love it if you gave any help you could, feel free to suggest next steps and images I could add to this post to help.

Also, rough estimates of cost to repair would be useful if you have any knowledge of prices.

Thank you so much, this forum is a lifesaver

 

[timmycm850]

from your symptoms it sounds like but could be wrong.
The nut in the end of the gearbox holding th 5th gear in place ( its inside the cover on the end of the gearbox). This has allowed the gearbox second shaft to shift towards the bellhousing and ground its way through the casing letting the oil get to the clutch and hence the slip.
No idea of cost though but plan for replacement gearbox and clutch.

Please let us know what the findings are

Tim

 

[Duhamel94]

from your symptoms it sounds like but could be wrong.
The nut in the end of the gearbox holding th 5th gear in place ( its inside the cover on the end of the gearbox). This has allowed the gearbox second shaft to shift towards the bellhousing and ground its way through the casing letting the oil get to the clutch and hence the slip.
No idea of cost though but plan for replacement gearbox and clutch.

Please let us know what the findings are

Tim

thanks for your input, I haven't considered this and will do more research!

 

[bugsymike]

Can we clarify please.
In general clutch slip is where you are in gear with foot off the clutch pedal, possibly under load in a higher gear pulling up a hill and you notice the engine revs/noise go up but the vehicle speed does not. As it gets worse you may notice a smell like burning/hot brakes.

Clutch not completely disengaging, hard to get into first gear or reverse from stationary being most common and can be due to many reasons including a leaky slave cylinder, air in system,etc. ( I have seen it caused by too thick a carpet under the clutch pedal ) also if worse after holding the clutch pedal down in at a junction it can be a clutch master cylinder (can involve vehicle trying to creep away and not being able to pull gearlever back to neutral), along with a sloppy clutch pedal, unlike the slave cylinder leak this doesn't always involve loss of clutch/brake fluid.
It can also be caused by a damaged clutch assembly not completely disengaging. This can be due to something breaking up or oil getting onto the clutch plate friction material, often starting with a judder pulling away up a hill, then if it doesn't completely disengage can cause gear engagement problems, eventually clutch slip.If you suspect this I would test the oil leaking from around the bell housing/clutch area to see if it is gear oil (usually thicker with a pungent smell, engine oil which would be thinner and match what is on your dipstick, or finally a dirty thinner dark oil that smells like clutch fluid (it may not totally resemble new clutch fluid as it is old and contaminated which can be the cause of the clutch slave cylinder failure)
All of the above can affect all gears but worse when trying to engage first or reverse.
I don't have specific knowledge on your gearbox, but as timmycm850 suggests, that could be another area to check, especially when you say about noise getting worse on left hand side, also if oil leak proves to be gear oil that would be another symptom of a gearbox failure pointing in that direction.
Though I would also jack vehicle up and spin the road wheel and check for any excess movement in case the wheel bearing is another issue, as you mention it gets worse on a right hand bend which would throw more weight onto the left hand wheel bearing.

 

[Communicator]

@Duhamel94 ,

Is your vehicle an x230, or the later x244 model? The model change year was 2002.
The x230 originally had a cable operated clutch, and the x244 is hydraulic. I am not sure when the change to hydraulic operation of the clutch was implemented, but the model change would seem to be most probable time.

You can check the model number by looking at the VIN. It will have the form ZFA230,,,,,,,,,, or ZFA244........
If your read yhe number from the VIN plate, which is typically on the cross member over the radiator, also look at the brake fluid reservoir. If clutch operation is hydraulic, the reservoir will have a hose connecting to the clutch master cylinder, which on the x244 passes through the bulkhead. Further if you do have hydraulic operation, there are internal weirs in the reservoir to separate the two brake circuits, and the clutch. The compartment for the clutch is vehicle left rear, and the level could be different to that of the brakes which is towards the front, and more obvious.

The dark fluid that you mention, could be engine oil leaing from the main bearing oil seal. Engine oil will be black, as loaded with microscopic carbon particles. Compare with the end of the dipstick.

 

[Duhamel94]

Can we clarify please.
In general clutch slip is where you are in gear with foot off the clutch pedal, possibly under load in a higher gear pulling up a hill and you notice the engine revs/noise go up but the vehicle speed does not. As it gets worse you may notice a smell like burning/hot brakes.

Clutch not completely disengaging, hard to get into first gear or reverse from stationary being most common and can be due to many reasons including a leaky slave cylinder, air in system,etc. ( I have seen it caused by too thick a carpet under the clutch pedal ) also if worse after holding the clutch pedal down in at a junction it can be a clutch master cylinder (can involve vehicle trying to creep away and not being able to pull gearlever back to neutral), along with a sloppy clutch pedal, unlike the slave cylinder leak this doesn't always involve loss of clutch/brake fluid.
It can also be caused by a damaged clutch assembly not completely disengaging. This can be due to something breaking up or oil getting onto the clutch plate friction material, often starting with a judder pulling away up a hill, then if it doesn't completely disengage can cause gear engagement problems, eventually clutch slip.If you suspect this I would test the oil leaking from around the bell housing/clutch area to see if it is gear oil (usually thicker with a pungent smell, engine oil which would be thinner and match what is on your dipstick, or finally a dirty thinner dark oil that smells like clutch fluid (it may not totally resemble new clutch fluid as it is old and contaminated which can be the cause of the clutch slave cylinder failure)
All of the above can affect all gears but worse when trying to engage first or reverse.
I don't have specific knowledge on your gearbox, but as timmycm850 suggests, that could be another area to check, especially when you say about noise getting worse on left hand side, also if oil leak proves to be gear oil that would be another symptom of a gearbox failure pointing in that direction.
Though I would also jack vehicle up and spin the road wheel and check for any excess movement in case the wheel bearing is another issue, as you mention it gets worse on a right hand bend which would throw more weight onto the left hand wheel bearing.

The clutch is slipping, but this has only just begun to happen, the difficulty with 1st gear is an older issue.

Thanks for your suggestions about comparing the oil to that from the dipstick, I’ll do that and update the post.

I’ll also spin the wheel as suggested, but there are no signs of the kind of droning noise you get with worn wheel bearings. I’ve only ever seen rear wheel bearings go though so perhaps it’s a different sound or type of failure.

 

[Duhamel94]

@Duhamel94 ,

Is your vehicle an x230, or the later x244 model? The model change year was 2002.
The x230 originally had a cable operated clutch, and the x244 is hydraulic. I am not sure when the change to hydraulic operation of the clutch was implemented, but the model change would seem to be most probable time.

You can check the model number by looking at the VIN. It will have the form ZFA230,,,,,,,,,, or ZFA244........
If your read yhe number from the VIN plate, which is typically on the cross member over the radiator, also look at the brake fluid reservoir. If clutch operation is hydraulic, the reservoir will have a hose connecting to the clutch master cylinder, which on the x244 passes through the bulkhead. Further if you do have hydraulic operation, there are internal weirs in the reservoir to separate the two brake circuits, and the clutch. The compartment for the clutch is vehicle left rear, and the level could be different to that of the brakes which is towards the front, and more obvious.

The dark fluid that you mention, could be engine oil leaing from the main bearing oil seal. Engine oil will be black, as loaded with microscopic carbon particles. Compare with the end of the dipstick.

Thanks I will check all these details and update the post

 

[Duhamel94]

UPDATE:

The van has the Vin ZFA230
The leak is motor oil, I've confirmed this by comparison with the oil from the dipstick