Technical Motor salad? Need help identifying...

[vascrats]

I'm a new Fiat 500 owner and a new member. I recently purchased a 1965 500f with the following description for the motor: 'has been upgraded with 950cc work from Panda heads and 84mm pistons with sport cam and 4 speed synchro trans of the Fiat 126. It also has a larger 80mm exhaust and 2 barrel carb with Panda intake and multispark ignition.'

Upon getting the car home and driving it some and looking closer at her, I want to really go over the motor and electrical systems. I am at the point of trying to identify what the heck I need to order as far as gaskets and such for the motor and need some help.

Here are my main questions:

1) The motor has the following stamped on the block by the fuel pump:
Fiat126a.000 and 7093933 under that. Would this tell me what motor gasket kit I would need or is there information still missing?

2) Would the motor kit that matches the bottom end have most of the gaskets and seals for the rocker cover and push rod tubes despite the Panda head? I have a tube that is leaking oil at the base fairly bad.

3) Mr. fait claims that they don't have a Weber 30DGF gasket or rebuild kit. Anybody know who might supply this in the states?

4) What would the MSD multispark box be providing in this setup and could it be doing more bad than good as MSD does not list 2 cyl as an option with this box.

I appreciate any help identifying and evaluating my motor setup and look forward to asking tons more questions.

Thanks!
Phil

 

[Bambino]

Phil,

Wow - where do you start ....

I'll try to answer your questions in order.

1) The stamping denotes a 652cc Fiat 126 block (originally). Bore 77.0mm by stroke 70.0mm.

2) If the engine really has a 950cc capacity with 84mm bore then it must have a stroke of around 85.7mm. Both values are big increases from standard and if not done properly will result in major problems. For example, the attached photo is of a standard 77.0mm block bored to 79.5mm to create a 695cc engine. If you overbore the block you take out more of the bit between the arrow heads and may significantly weaken the structural integrity if you go to a big bore. Interleaving strengthening spacers are available and you should be able to see these at the bottom of the cylinders. I can't see any in the photo. Also the crankshaft and conrods will be different (longer stroke).

3) Try Fiat 500 Ricambi here http://www.fiat500ricambi.com/tuning/?categorie=Fuel+system&product=BV1072. I've bought from these guys - they are in Holland and are OK. Rebuild kits should be available locally for the DGF carburettors as I believe that these were the standard ones on the Pandas.

4) If you are concerned about the 'electronic ignition' I'd ditch it and, for the moment, go back to a standard ignition.

The only way you will know for sure if the engine has been properly rebuilt may be to strip it and have a look. That way you can clean and measure everything and then rebuild it to your own specification. However if it is running OK, might be best leave well enough alone. If the oil leak is a problem, it's a relatively simple matter to lift the head and replace the top and bottom seals.

Chris

PS: Welcome to the list.

 

[Miramontesj]

I was doing some engine research when I was in search of my donor drivetrain. Somewhere I found that the 650cc engine was stamped with 126 A1 000 and the 594cc engine was stamped with 126 A 000. I'm not sure if this makes any difference on your highly modified engine.

 

[vascrats]

Hmmm, when I google 126a000 I get mostly 594/600 hits and see more 126a1000 associated with the 650.

I guess my main goal here is to clean up and rebuild the carb and fix the oil leak at the push rod tube. Are the seals for the push rod tubes o-rings and would they be the same regardless of the gasket kit?

Also, if I remove the panda head to fix the tube leak, will I need a 'Panda 30' head gasket and/or other Panda gaskets or would the ones in the Fiat 600cc kit here work for everything (except the intake manifold to head)?

mrfiat.com-item=Cars/Fiat/Fiat%20500/Engine/Fiat500R126600ccEngineGasketSetNew

As far as the push rod tube seal replacement, is there a procedure listed here or do I need the haynes manual?

Can that procedure be done with the motor in the car or does it have to come out?

Sorry for the strange questions but mix a Fiat newbie with a frankenmotor and this is what you get .

Thanks again!

 

[Bambino]

Hmmm, when I google 126a000 I get mostly 594/600 hits and see more 126a1000 associated with the 650.

You may be right - but I sincerely hope that no one has bored out a 600cc to 950cc. If they have, I trust that what's left of the block has been reinforced.

All the other parts should be available and from memory, the 650 push rod seals are thicker than the 500 ones. Don't know what the 950 ones look like

Chris

 

[Bambino]

I checked the engine types for the air-cooled, two cylinder sedans using Bobbitt's excellent book as the gold standard reference.

So here they are -

Nuova 500 (1957-60) Type 110.000 66.0mm x 70.0mm (bore x stroke) = 479cc, 13bhp

500D (60-65) Type 110D.000 67.4 x 70.0 = 499.5cc, 17.5bhp
500F/L (65-72)Type 110F.000 67.4 x 70.0 = 499.5, 22bhp

500R (72) Type 126A.000 73.5 x 70 = 594cc, 18bhp
126 (72-77) Type 126A.000 73.5 x 70 = 594cc, 23bhp

126 (2nd series) (78-79) Type 126A1.000 77.5 x 70 = 652cc, 23bhp

Production then ceased in Italy.

From 1973 to about 2000 the cars were produced under license, initially in parallel, in Poland by FSM and also by Zastava in Yugoslavia. We got them in Australia as the Niki 650 where they were unfairly reviled largely because of their very poor build quality. Rather a sad end to an iconic automobile.

FSM (Niki) 650 (78-00) Type 126A1.000 77.5 x 70 = 652cc, 23bhp

Most of the aftermarket reproduction crankcases available new today are stamped FSM and are 652cc capacity. According to information I received when building my 695cc engine using a 652 crankcase, the safest overbore is 80mm (704cc with a standard crank). Beyond that it starts to get a bit tricky.

Hope this helps and apologies for any confusion,
Chris

 

[vascrats]

Panda head confusion? Need help identifying...

Seriously Bambino, no needs for apology, especially with all you do to help people on this forum! I'm new here but have seen how helpful your posts are to people while doing my research. With all the versions and mixed bits out there it has to be all too easy to mis-quote something. You also took time to give even more info on the subject.

I tried the on-line haynes link and for some reason it does not work for me. I did find a copy out on the net but the pictures are pretty much useless. According to it I can do the head pull while in the car but with as much as I have unhooked at this point it won't take much to slide the motor out I don't think.

Eyeballing the push rod/ oil tubes, with the Panda head it obviously looks like they are split (in my pictures, they are the rusty top halves and the red bottom halves) making this even more confusing. Does anybody know a Panda head build thread or someone who has done this to get their take on what gaskets and seals I might need? This is such a confusing mess:bang:.

 

[Miramontesj]

Re: Panda head confusion? Need help identifying...

Definitely appreciate the wealth of information you share with the rest of us Chris.

 

[Bambino]

Thanks - I really appreciate the sentiment.

Over the years I've owned and rebuilt many cars - mostly European because I'm too lazy to buy non-metric tools - and I usually do a lot of research before and during the rebuild. When I bought the 500F I did the same and am more than happy to share what I know and where I got the information. I've only one request - I'm only human and I do make mistakes, so if something doesn't sound quite right say so. I've got big shoulders. When the correct information is revealed, we all learn.

Enough of the soppy stuff - back to the problem.

I haven't had any experience with Panda 30 heads on earlier motors but have found some information that may be of help. It came from the South Australian 500 Club Register at

http://www.fiat500clubsa.org.au/articles/increase-power-in-your-niki-or-650-engine

From what I've heard and read, a large valve standard head with a reasonable carburettor is easier to fit and less trouble in the end.

I'm interested to hear what head gasket the PO fitted - trying to get one to fit an 84mm bore sounds interesting. The original Panda 30 was a 652cc (77.5x70) engine (type 141A.000) developing 30bhp at 5500rpm - hence the name. With a decent cam, slightly bigger inlet valves and a slight increase in compression ratio you can get 30bhp out of a standard 650 without completely ruining the engine or the driving experience. I finally got my 695 on a dyno and the guys reckon it's developing around 35bhp at 5000rpm.

Keep us informed and post a few more photos when you get it apart. If it's really a Frankenmotor, you'll have two extra bolts left over when you restore it to normal

Chris

PS: Next project might be a 1969 Lancia Fulvia Zagato. I've found one that 'needs a little bit of work' ..... Just have to sweet talk the wife and clean out some of the junk in the shed.

 

[vascrats]

Well, got the motor pulled this weekend. I love this little car if for no other reason than how basic it is! Pulling the motor took no time and no experience .

This engine is an oily mess. Looking at the gaskets, it is no wonder. I guess the good news is I likely can't go any worse at coming up with gaskets or making them!

I have emailed Mr.Fiat asking what shipping of a complete motor would be to me in VA to weigh that option. That would get me back to a fairly standard configuration and give me all the missing tins and air filter as well. I likely won't care about less 'power' in exchange for something I can more readily get parts for and know what I have. The only thing I don't like for that money is no warranty at all. I can half way understand but I just know how I'd be if it had major issues straight away.

 

[vascrats]

Another quick question...Can someone confirm for me that the following motor from MrFiat would work in my 500 w/ a 126 synchro transmission? I can't paste URL's yet but if you look on their site under Fiat/500/engine, it will be listed as:

Fiat 500 126 650 cc Engine Complete New

I would hope with the 126 in the description it would but before I would drop $3100 shipped, I would have to be 110% sure it would work.

Thanks again for all the help so far !!

 

[Miramontesj]

Looking at the picture of your gearbox, the starter location is on the right spot for the 652cc engine to fit without the need for a different gearbox. Have you pulled the engine apart and verified the bore? I wonder if you may just be able to replace the head and have a reliable running car.

I'm lucky enough to be in Italy and have a good source or used parts.

 

[vascrats]

O.K., it looks like the funds have come through for a new motor from Mr. Fiat. Since I am looking at the complete motor with alternator, I will find Bambino's reply in another thread helpful as far as wiring that up.

I do have a good muffler but it is a larger diameter one that looks like the 70mm model on Mr.Fiat's site. I am figuring that it would be best to get a stock muffler so the back presure and all is right for the more standard motor. Would this be correct thinking?

Aslo, Bambino, if you don't mind weighing in on if you think the Mr. Fiat motor will mesh with the transmission shown in the last pic, that would ease my mind a bit more having more than one opinion there (though I do value your opinion as well Miramontesj. I was told my transmission was a 126 synchro tranny.

Lastly, are there any other things to consider when popping in a complete motor like that? I would not have caught the generator/altenator difference on my own.

Thanks a bunch all!!!
Phil

 

[Bambino]

Phil,
I've attached two photos of the different bellhousings. The 126 bellhousing has the starter motor on the RHS as you look at it, whereas the 500 starter is at the 12o'clock position. If you have a 126 transmission, which seems to be the case, a 652cc 126 engine will fit.

The 126 engines fit without a problem. The main differences are:

Gearbox bellhousing & starter motor. The starter will need to be wired in to a push button or starter switch (eg: Fiat 125 ignition switch).

Alternator instead of generator.

Exhaust manifold is curved differently. 500 & 126 exhausts are not interchangeable.

500 engine mount and transom can be used for 126 engine though you'll need to change the standard mounting studs for the ones off your 500 engine. Not a big problem.

Outlet tinware is different on the 126 engines. The duct directing air to the cabin is positioned differently. You will also need to modify the intermediate duct as the 500 one will foul the starter - photos attached.

These are the main differences. The conversion is well worth doing, but in the first instance it might be worth stripping the Frankenmotor to see exactly what you've got. It may be relatively easy to rehabilitate ....

Chris

 

[vascrats]

Thanks for the reply with good pictures Bambino. Since Frankenmotor did not have ANY tinware on it including missing the air cleaner, that was one reason I was also leaning towards the entire fresh setup. I also wanted to go ahead and get a motor while they are still to be had. Not sure if the new NOS built motors will eventually dry up.

I see what you mean about the outlet duct and I recently was looking at your posts in another thread about them (was it the thermostat thread?).

Mr. Fiat's site lists a single muffler as being for either a 500R or 126. I would imagine that would be the one that would go with the motor I am looking at but I guess that would be a question for them when I place the order.

Thanks again for confirming the transmission hookup. As far as the starter goes, I did have a starter hooked up on the right side but it was hooked up to the pull cable? Is that odd? I will be re-using it as the new motor does not come with a starter.

Thanks.
Phil

P.S. I do plan on going through Frankenmotor as a side project to learn more about it and to have a spare

 

[Bambino]

Mr. Fiat's site lists a single muffler as being for either a 500R or 126. I would imagine that would be the one that would go with the motor I am looking at but I guess that would be a question for them when I place the order.

Thanks again for confirming the transmission hookup. As far as the starter goes, I did have a starter hooked up on the right side but it was hooked up to the pull cable? Is that odd? I will be re-using it as the new motor does not come with a starter.

Thanks.
Phil

P.S. I do plan on going through Frankenmotor as a side project to learn more about it and to have a spare

I keep forgetting about the 500R, or pre126 I guess you could call it.

When I had my car in bits, I compared the two starter motors and the mounts looked very different. Someone must have adapted a 500 starter to fit a 126 - don't know how or why

Just remember that in Mary Shelley's book, Frankenstein was basically a good man who became obsessed with reanimation and thus created his nameless and initially harmless, monster. Go easy on your odd engine - you may find that it teaches you a lot

Chris

 

[tjmra]

I know the puzzle has been resolved, but I came across this on the UK ebay site.

Just search on item 120840270638. (Fiat 500 126 Panda 30 Cylinder head (set)).

Regards

Joe R

 

[vascrats]

Thanks for keeping this in mind Joe.

At this point though I have placed an order with Mr. Fiat for a complete 650 motor. Which reminds me, I need to call them. Ship date keeps getting pushed back. This was supposed to be my Christmas (the gift part anyway).

Eventually I will revisit this motor and try to get it oil tight. It was at least running fair when I pulled it.