Technical Lift kit flange option 4.

[andyholli]

As I understand it the options for a flange capable of accepting lifted suspension (-See kolza's excellent recent work in this area) are:

1. Rialzi4x4 billet 'Flangia Modifica' for Euro 119 at today's price.
2. Steel Fiat 127 version for £80 ish.
3. Risk it and hope for the best..

I bought a 127 steel gearbox left side output flange suspecting my aluminium original to be on the way out.

It wasn't, but that's another story.

So I fitted the steel one and discovered that it needs the collar from the right hand side, plus matching boot, instead of the clamp on design that the left side normally has. - Thanks AndyPanda4x4.

All of which got me thinking. - Compare the two designs in profile and because of the difference in boot attachment, the steel version is a fair bit slimmer/shorter/sticks out less from the gearbox. Resulting in more space for the driveshaft to droop before making contact..



- I omitted to photograph the two side by side, sorry.

So, if you're still with me on this. The 127 flange is tougher and less likely to foul with a lift kit but it does cost about £80.

What if we cut down the original aluminium flange to the same sort of height as the steel one, drilled and tapped three holes (which looks tight but just achievable and hey - it's not like any of the set ups keep oil in particularly well anyway)



to get a free(ish) lift ready flange option..

The other role of this flange, of course, is to preload the diff bearings. And taking away half or more of this collar will weaken it. Possibly significantly but the loads aren't that high and the collar inside the box that bears against the shims remains untouched, plus the addition of a bolted on steel clamp will add a bit of strength back too, so overall.. We need a test.

Jacob, Andy, Si?

 

[northernchap]

I have no idea if this adds any value to this discussion, but I found it earlier so I will add it here anyway.

http://www.subito.it/accessori-auto/modifica-per-flangia-panda-4x4-old-torino-136281739.htm

If not then carry on!

 

[kolza]

Andy,
I'll get my essey up here tommorow - pretty bussy right now.
I need to pull few details and photos out.

Yes, moded alloy flange is prefered by some Italian users.

Basicaly the mail rule is:

If your are still using std shock absorber and no top mount to body spacer it is advice but not necessary to go for 127 flange. In you case 1242cc - yes.
Modified (chamfered) std flange is enough.

Make sure you'll fit 1mm of shims extra as the collar which goes inside is lower, the inner teeths will need to be machined out as well as they can still colide with shaft.

Edit: just noticed you got the extra shim and it been machined in the inside.

 

[kolza]

I have no idea if this adds any value to this discussion, but I found it earlier so I will add it here anyway.

http://www.subito.it/accessori-auto/modifica-per-flangia-panda-4x4-old-torino-136281739.htm

If not then carry on!

This is adapter plate only.
Std alloy flange does need to be modded ( grounded) adding extra cost. Not the strongest setup.
Within few weeks i should have lots of machined cast iron flanges as in F127.

 

[panda1408]

Might be worth speaking to kestrel4x4 to see what sort of cost it would be to supply the flange as used in PORCI kit. Quite possibly cheaper then the Rialzi4x4 one and they are certainly very well made, the ones I have had even came anodized red!

 

[kolza]

1. 'Flangia Modifica' - off set flange
2. Fiat 4203334, 127 cast iron flange- modified,
3. Standard cast aluminium flange.

Before I'll dive more in to details of every possible options the whole background and main reason why do we bother needs to be clarified. What are the conditions where we should be concern? How much lift can I go for?




Standard vehicle under normal use and normal road conditions should never have any issues with haft shaft colliding with flange. Std shock absorber stroke/travel is pre-defined for std panda front suspension. When shock absorber is fully extended ( free hanging wheel) ideally there should be enough clearance between flange and shaft to prevent any contact.




But as we now (mainly from Andy's B. experience) that under repeated severe conditions the std flange can be damaged.
(arrow pointing towards top, circle showing place where contact was made)

There are several small factors behind that which added up all together can lead to disaster.


Let say in the original design there is 5mm clearance between inner circumference outer edge of the flange and shaft, but when you add in engine/gearbox movements under heavy load which can increase if the mounts aren't in good fit, strut top rubber mount sagging down, track arm/tie rod bush deterioration and mainly shock absorber not giving full 100% damping across whole stoke - especially in the upper range.


Under those condition shaft will hit the flange easily.


Various flange types study.




1.0 Standard cast aluminium flange 7697098

1. works well under normal road conditions,
2. can be used for light off-road,
3. under severe use and certain conditions can get damaged, but is it less likely to occur as the clearance was increased by 3-5mm.
4. weakened structure as less material.
5. design to work with std shock absorber, suspension lift allowed by altering the coils spring only - no strut to body spacer. Point 3 apply.

2.0 Modified standard cast aluminium flange

1. works well under normal road conditions,
2. can be used for light off-road,
3. under severe use and certain conditions can get damaged, but is it less likely to occur as the clearance was increased by 3-5mm.
4. weakened structure as less material, not recommended for 1242cc 8 or 16V conversions.
5. design to work with std shock absorber, suspension lift allowed by altering the coils spring only - no strut to body spacer. Point 3 apply.

As seen on photo above almost half of the inner circumference have been chamfered increasing shaft clearance. For 1242cc use personally I would add extra flat steel plate made from 3-5mm thick sheet to the outside, so it would have same outer shape, 4 mounting holes and large centre hole for the rubber boot.




3.0 Cast iron Fiat 127 flange, 4203334.


as supplied,

flange with machined out inner teeth's, boot and secondary flange/clamp

1. Extra 1mm of flange clearance shims must be used, inner teeth's must be machined out,
2. works well under normal road conditions,
3. can be used for serious off-road,
4. under severe use and certain conditions can get in contact with shaft, but the damage is it less likely to occur as the clearance is bigger than std flange due to slimmer design.
5. Week point is that if the shaft will ground with the flange it will hit in to the secondary flange lip first which will cut through the rubber boot as it will get squeezed in-between.
6. cast iron providing extra structure strength, recommended for 1242cc 8 or 16V conversions.
7. design to work with std shock absorber, suspension lift allowed by altering the coils spring and strut to body spacer. Point 3&5 apply.

4.0 'Flangia Modifica' - off set flange.


As manufactured and supplied by PORCI or alternative Italian suppliers.
Photo below, the outer collar is off set towards bottom by 6-8mm ( 2 o'clock on the photo) providing maximum clearance.

1. Manufactured / machined from solid aluminium block,
2. Design to maximised clearance,
3. works well under normal road conditions,
4. can be used for heavy off-road,
5. aluminium body, 1242cc might need stiffening plate.
6. design to work with std and modified shock absorbers, suspension lift allowed by altering almost any part of the suspension.
7. easily will cope with lift over 70mm ( other problems will be addressed at that level)

Hope it helps a bit.

 

[kolza]

I have no idea if this adds any value to this discussion, but I found it earlier so I will add it here anyway.

http://www.subito.it/accessori-auto/modifica-per-flangia-panda-4x4-old-torino-136281739.htm

If not then carry on!

This is adapter plate only.
Std alloy flange does need to be modded ( grounded) adding extra cost. Not the strongest setup.
Within few weeks i should have lots of machined cast iron flanges as in F127.

After having second look if someone have access to milling machine and large lathe this idea does make sense and is less complicated (no cnc required) but the backing plate would need to be thicker. If the plate will be solid enough there should be no issues with getting decent seal.

 

[Freebo]

Might be worth speaking to @kestrel4x4 to see what sort of cost it would be to supply the flange as used in PORCI kit. Quite possibly cheaper then the Rialzi4x4 one and they are certainly very well made, the ones I have had even came anodized red!

http://www.panda4x4.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=4734

 

[pandamonius_maximus]

Cool, thanks for the info guys. I've still not put a huge amount of thought into this other than it would be cool

It only makes sense that the same year I slam the hell out of the Marbella, that the 4x4 reaches for the clouds :devil:

 

[andyholli]

The gap in between is a measure of your success!