JTD flywheel

[Anonymous]

Hi, The Fiat garage say my flywheel is leaking oil. Yes leaking oil! The main oil seal behind is bone dry. They took the flywheel off. The gearbox oil seal seems ok. It appears the JTD flywheel rather than being totally solid has a central coupling damper affair in a circle around where the flywheel bolts go through which has oil or grease to lubricate itself and it is this that is leaking slighty. There is a very slight oily dampness to the black clutch dust in the gearbox bell housing which made me think input shaft seal myself. But they say it is ok. To change it they would have to take apart the gearbox.

The solution they say is to fit a new flywheel at £400! But have decided to have them clean it up as best as poss before fitting the new clutch. I know, how long will this one last?

Anyone who has direct experience or knowledge of the JTD and whether indeed a new flywheel is indeed the solution and can offer advice would be greatly appreciated.

thanks,
andy

 

[Tom]

That all sounds like a load of ******** to me.

 

[Anonymous]

Can you be more specific?

 

[Anonymous]

I'm inclined to point the finger at the input shaft oil seal. There isn't a lot of oil just very slight dampness to the dust.

Although oil is there, bad, it isn't contributing to the slip which might be because the clutch just cannot handle the torque. It is the after all the original Valeo unit.

 

[Tom]

You will always get a certain amount of oil in there, oil seals are not perfect (as some people seem to think they are) and over the years they weep just an itty bitty bit.

Also road spray gets in the bell housing, condensation, fumes from the engine, all sorts.

If its wet with oil and there is oil on the pressure plate and the drive plate then you have an issue.

I have my doubts about the 'coupling' in the flywheel. Its a heavy item and takes a lot of loading, both torque load and latteral load from the clutch release mechanism. When you press the pedal its pressing the release springs against the flywheel which is being held in place by the crank thrust washers. Thats a lot of force (and why you shouldn't start a car with the clutch in, the bearings won't have any oil!)

The drive plate has a rubber coupling to reduce shock loads.

 

[Ash]

Sounds like ******** to me they are trying to rob u m8

Im Driven to Earn, and I Earn to Drive......

 

[Anonymous]

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1256956

Have been doing some searching on google and have found a thread on dual mass flywheels, albeit based around VW 1.8T which have experienced slip or even failed at ridiculously low mileages. Interesting reading. VW refuses to honour cars still under warranty.

The Fiat JTD uses Dual Mass Flywheels.

The DMF reduces engine vibration to the transmission giving a much smoother drive train apparently. There are accounts of them failing ie no drive the engine just spins and also oil and grease leaking from them and contaminating the clutch surfaces. So I get the impression they are not as robust as solid flywheels.

Could I use the older presumably solid 1.9 TD flywheel instead? It must be the same diameter and have the same crank and clutch mountings???? No way would I spend £400 on another DMF flywheel that is under engineered and will slip.

In other threads I have read the Alfa 2.4JTD seems to be very resistant to clutch problems even with a remap.

So the Bravo JTD clutch is not the full extent of the clutch slip problem but possibly the DM flywheel as well?

andy.

 

[Tom]

Well, you learn something new everyday, that has to be the most complex and stupidest thing I've EVER seen. WHY?!

Why can't people accept that small 4cly engines will never be BMW straight 6 silky smooth (the only good thing BMW ever did) and put up with some vibration and rattle.

 

[Anonymous]

Excerpt from the above thread:-

I did a rear brake job on her car a few months before the clutch failed so completely that dumping the clutch in first gear at idle would not kill the engine !

I wasted four days arguing with the dealer and VW and
got nowhere on behalf of my customer, arguing, of course, that this repair should be covered under the powertrain warranty as clearly outlined in the owner's manual.

Owner paid over $1300.00 for the repair and picked up her car.
The updated clutch (larger, new part number) was installed as far as I know.

One interesting omission is that neither the manufacturer of the DMF nor VW nor Bentley can come up with any specs for checking the DMF. I should know, I purchased the factory manual (worthless) and have sent emails to all partied mentioned above.

Below is info I posted on another forum:
------------------------------------------------------------

Hopefully by now most? are aware that the 1.8T engines are experiencing more than their share of clutch failures.

Most are NOT aware that this engine uses a very unusual flywheel, that, IMHO, is at the root of the problem.

I had a customer's car, a 2001 Jetta 1.8T with only 15,000 miles and clutch went from working fine to failure (slipping so bad car will barely move) in the matter of one day. She has driven manual transmission cars all her life and got over 100,000 miles on the clutch disc in her last car (not a Jetta with 1.8T).

Why use a DMF (dual mass flywheel) ???
see:
http://www.luk.de/Bibliothek/D...s.pdf

For a good pic and info / TSB see:
http://www.sachshandel.de/owx_...2.pdf

Interestingly enough neither VW, Bentley, or Luk (who makes the DMF) have ANY info on specs or how to check the DMF.

Here is the final outcome of my customer's 2001 Jetta with the quick total clutch failure at 15,000 miles.

Dealer refused to honor this repair under the manufacturer's 10 year 100,000 miles Powertrain Warranty.

Here are the arguments that I suggested to the customer to pursue equity in this matter:

1) We demanded to be there upon removal of the transmission to ensure chain of command of all ruined parts. The transmission was removed without either one of us present and therefore we have no guarantee that any of the "bad" parts that were under her car ... were originally installed on her car.

2) The DMF (dual mass flywheel) found still bolted to the crankshaft was exhibiting play that exceeds that of a new unit. There is no specification in the factory repair manual and neither Bentley, Audi, nor LuK has been able to come up with one. ... but a new DMF I tested had 6mm play. The one on her car had more than 22mm play ! Maybe even more important is that oil / grease appears to have leaked out from the DMF and contaminated the clutch disc and the whole inside of the bell housing.

3) The whole unit is under-engineered. The new part number for the upgraded unit is 17-059 (LuK) and 06A 105 264M (VW). This upgraded unit has a larger (230mm v 220mm OD) clutch disc. Hopefully they will not wear out so quickly !

4) There are many reports of early catastrophic clutch failures for VW DMF cars .. on the internet.

5) Key personnel at the dealer and at the company that manufactures the clutch units have confirmed several times the abnormal failure rate of this clutch unit, especially in 2000 and 2001 Jettas with 1.8 Turbo engines.

6) Just to the left of the input shaft to the transmission was an abnormal wear pattern on a static surface of the tranny that should not be there. I believe that the bolts holding the pressure plate to the flywheel either broke or worked loose and allowed excessive movement of the pressure palte to contact the inside static surface of the transmission housing. This is completely abnormal ..... Once again .... since they did not allow me to be there during teardown.... we can only assume they wish to hide something. At this point I can not confirm my assertion since I do not even know where the bolts are now .......

7)VW of NA customer service has been of absolutely no assistance in this matter. They refused to advance this issue to the District Tech Rep. The customer has paid for the repair (over $1300) and picked up her car. We anticipate that a lawsuit (very possibly a class action) will be necessary in order for equity to prevail.

Advice: do not buy a VW with a 1.8 turbo engine, it has a DMF.