Technical Fuse location

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Technical Fuse location

CeriR

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Caerphilly South Wales
Hi we have a 51 plate Ducato based Moho and the horn and high beam flash have stopped working (main beam still works). I've checked the fuses in the glove box and all are fine. Is there another fuse box on a 51 Ducato or any help in identifying why both have failed. Both wires are attached to the horn which was new last summer. Tia
 
There is a fuse box under the bonnet which controls the horn. Do a search on the internet for fusesdiagram and it will show you the location and detail the fuses. if you find nothing it’s likely that there’s a fault with the column stalks.
 
There is a fuse box under the bonnet which controls the horn. Do a search on the internet for fusesdiagram and it will show you the location and detail the fuses. if you find nothing it’s likely that there’s a fault with the column stalks.
Brilliant thank you
 
Hi we have a 51 plate Ducato based Moho and the horn and high beam flash have stopped working (main beam still works). I've checked the fuses in the glove box and all are fine. Is there another fuse box on a 51 Ducato or any help in identifying why both have failed. Both wires are attached to the horn which was new last summer. Tia

Oh wow , we've not got much to work with here . So you have a 51 plate duke , that if memory serves , makes it a 2001 . An engine size would have been helpful , but lets take a stab , huh . My vehicle is a 2000 , 2.8 tdi , model x230 . Very similar to the jtd except i don't have an ecu , so i'm willing to guess yours will be one of those two models , or at least pretty close .
First off i seem to recall the horn and one of the headlights are on a single fuse together , however , the trouble is i can't remember which one off hand . Now if your vehicle is a x230 , there is a fuse box under the bonnet , but this is whats best described as a supplementary box . It has the rad fan fuses (there are two) and the d+ fuse , plus i also suspect the fridge fuse as well , i'm just not sure on that , but to call it a fuse box is stretching it a bit far . The main vehicle fuse box is in the base of the glove box , inside the vehicle and there are no further fuses on these circuits . Now you say the high beams don't work , to which my question is are you sure . The headlights are fused separately , so i have to ask is it both , or just one not working . I'm afraid i suspect your failure is most likely due to an earthing issue , which unfortunately is quite common and this will be under the bonnet . The nearside high beam is earthed just below the air filter box on the left main chassis rail , and it just so happens this is also where the horn is also fused , actually the two circuits join about 75mm from the earth bolt . The off side is fused in exactly the same place , except it's on the right hand chassis rail just under the battery , that is why i asked about both headlights working or not .
What i suggest you do , is source a 15amp wire , about a metre long , bare both ends , and secondary earth the circuits as a temporary step . Then check function again .
I found a problem in my wiring last year , which is the reason i have a fairly good knowledge of these circuits . I'm just hoping you don't have the same , but it does need to be eliminated . I will say , the repair is not difficult , but it is time consuming . I'm just glad i found it before it caused any problems .
 
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To clarify the Ducato is a 1.9TD. I've taken another look today and there is no second fuse box under the bonnet though there are some fuse clusters tucked up above the battery. The battery will need to come out to give proper access
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To clarify the Ducato is a 1.9TD. I've taken another look today and there is no second fuse box under the bonnet though there are some fuse clusters tucked up above the battery. The battery will need to come out to give proper access View attachment 435152View attachment 435153View attachment 435154View attachment 435155View attachment 435156

Yep it's looking increasingly like a 230 , i was close . What's interesting is , it's very similar layout to my 2.8 except obviously the engine itself . I also note your right hand drive . Being a left hooker , the major difference to mine , is the header tank . That's where your brake reservoir is , and vice versa , but also my header tank is almost twice the size . Can i take it , it's a Hymer conversion , you're showing very similar battery connections to what i had , though i've made a couple of modifications since , to make battery removal easier . The secondary fuse block also looks similar , though you do have something going on above it . It looks like a spare plug , but it's difficult to be sure . The red fuse is your main fuse , i would suggest getting a spare if you've not already done so . Chances are you have a second close to the leisure battery . I had difficulty sourcing one through the usual channels . You should also find a 3 amp which is your secondary D+ trigger wire for the habitation side (the actual connection is under the battery tray , down on the wheel arch) and on the other side of the big red main fuse , two if memory servers 40 amp fuses , which are for your cooling fans , low speed and high . I have another two , one of which i suspect is the fridge , but i've yet to test that theory , along with a second , which i also suspect could be for the charge relay , but again , i've yet to figure that one out . I not sure what to make of that yellow fuse , though i suspect it could be your split charger due to the connections . Mine is on the fire wall along with what i think is the cold start control , and neither have a fuse attached , that's why i suspect the second spare . I think it's also yellow , so i need to remember that .

The left hand (nearside) earth i was talking about is just visible in photo 3 . Right middle , just in front of the aircleaner mounting bracket . This is a major earthing point for much of the nearside . The offside is not shown at all , but some additional info is , it's just in front of the engine mount in a similar postion .
 
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Yep it's looking increasingly like a 230 , i was close . What's interesting is , it's very similar layout to my 2.8 except obviously the engine itself . I also note your right hand drive . Being a left hooker , the major difference to mine , is the header tank . That's where your brake reservoir is , and vice versa , but also my header tank is almost twice the size . Can i take it , it's a Hymer conversion , you're showing very similar battery connections to what i had , though i've made a couple of modifications since , to make battery removal easier . The secondary fuse block also looks similar , though you do have something going on above it . It looks like a spare plug , but it's difficult to be sure . The red fuse is your main fuse , i would suggest getting a spare if you've not already done so . Chances are you have a second close to the leisure battery . I had difficulty sourcing one through the usual channels . You should also find a 3 amp which is your secondary D+ trigger wire for the habitation side (the actual connection is under the battery tray , down on the wheel arch) and on the other side of the big red main fuse , two if memory servers 40 amp fuses , which are for your cooling fans , low speed and high . I have another two , one of which i suspect is the fridge , but i've yet to test that theory , along with a second , which i also suspect could be for the charge relay , but again , i've yet to figure that one out . I not sure what to make of that yellow fuse , though i suspect it could be your split charger due to the connections . Mine is on the fire wall along with what i think is the cold start control , and neither have a fuse attached , that's why i suspect the second spare . I think it's also yellow , so i need to remember that .

The left hand (nearside) earth i was talking about is just visible in photo 3 . Right middle , just in front of the aircleaner mounting bracket . This is a major earthing point for much of the nearside . The offside is not shown at all , but some additional info is , it's just in front of the engine mount in a similar postion .
From reading the VIN in the photo, it is an x230.
 
Hi

Here is a schematic for the headlights. It is for the X230 model, but I cannot guarantee that it applies to your van - Fiat liked to change things !

The dipped headlights are supplied via the contacts in Relay 2605, then individual fuses F7 and F8. The coil of Relay 2605 is earthed at one end, and gets a 12 volt feed at the other end from the Light switch 2600 via the Dip switch 2001. When you go to main beam, this live feed is diverted by the dip switch to Relay 2606 instead, to turn on the Main beams.

If you have lost both Dip beams but everything else is OK, I suggest you check Relay 2605 is getting 12V to its coil, and has ground on the other end. It should click when dip beam is turned on. If Relays 2605 and 2606 are the same type try swapping them

I don't know how to copy the wire diagram over to this thread. Maybe someone else can ?
 
Dam , never thought of that , thank you @Communicator . It's interesting to see , quite a few parts in the photos are identical to my own , despite the difference in engine size , so i had already decided to treat it as a 230 . The wiring in my opinion is almost certainly identical as well .
Happy to help. I also have the diagrams as supplied by Anthony489, and copied to this thread by me at jackwhoo's request. I have previously scanned this set of diagrams, extracted from the German workshop manual in the downloads section. The horn does not appear anywhere on the suite of diagrams.
As regards the fuses near the battery, I agree that the red 50A maxi blade fuse is most probably the main connection to the habitation electrics, but the 25A (white), and 20A (yellow) fuses are a mystery. The 20A could be for a fridge, but that is only a possibility.
 
Happy to help. I also have the diagrams as supplied by Anthony489, and copied to this thread by me at jackwhoo's request. I have previously scanned this set of diagrams, extracted from the German workshop manual in the downloads section. The horn does not appear anywhere on the suite of diagrams.
As regards the fuses near the battery, I agree that the red 50A maxi blade fuse is most probably the main connection to the habitation electrics, but the 25A (white), and 20A (yellow) fuses are a mystery. The 20A could be for a fridge, but that is only a possibility.
Yeah i noticed , thank you again .
No , the horn doesn't show on any wiring diagrams i have either . I know it earths with the headlights because i've had that part of the loom apart . I had to get right into it for repair . As for the feed , that's a bit of an unknown . I keep hearing about relays being involved , but that wouldn't affect both circuits at the same time . And i have to question whether one is fitted or not . The actual connection to the horn is via quite light cable , and normally a relay is used for switching high power , often fed through much thicker cable . The problem is my relays are not function marked , so i can't confirm one way or the other . I've converted to twin horns this year , as part of the upgrades , but it's just struck me i haven't actually tested them yet . I had a bolt shear , and had to deal with that , so i could well be trouble shooting them at a later date . I've managed to positively identify a couple of relays , earlier last year , while tracking down a problem with my front fogs and have suspicions as to a couple more , but those remain theory's , and need testing to be sure . Yet even then i still have quite a few over , all high power at that . My wiper relay is else where , as also my fan relays . So i'm kinda at a loss with them . Knowing exactly how many relays i should have , and their working range could help , as this would help narrow down what each one actual does , but that also seems to escape both my owners , and workshop manuals as well . So i would literally have to go through each one separately , to find out what they actually do , and i've not had time so far to do that .

Yeah 20 amp would be about right for the fridge . On 12v it uses a 130w heater , i've got a new one to fit here , next year (heat to make cold , like really lol) , which with a simple conversion converts , to just under 11 amps . So allowing for a start surge my guess is a 20 would probably be in the circuit somewhere . Not sure about the other though . I suspected that's for the cold start , but as i have a flame start , 25 amp would seem a bit high , even allowing for a start surge .
 
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So I've located the relays behind the dash of my 2001 1.9td Ducato Hymer and have tested them all by placing a 9v double top terminal battery acros the main pins. This has energised all but two of the relays with them clicking on and off.
The remaining two large multi-pin relays do not energise but they do show ohm resistance numbers
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when a multimeter is used.
What are these two relays controlling please?
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The remaining two large multi-pin relays do not energise but they do show ohm resistance numbers

Okay , your relay layout is not dissimilar to mine , though i do appear to have at least a couple more relays . It's at this point we begin travelling into unknown territory , and so i'm gonna lay out my suspicions as to what i think each does . But i would also like to add a caution at the same time here , the following is based on theory and logic , none of this is actually backed up by fact . An examination of the relay layout is on my list , but i've simply not had time to actually do this to date . So i would urge you to treat this information with caution .

Now a little back ground here . A relay is little more than a high voltage switch . It's prime purpose is to protect lighter core cable from damaging high voltage , the type of voltage that would convert a light wire section to a light bulb . They also enable more fancy switches to be used , and by that i mean the type that sell cars (most people buy on looks , not technical achievement) , however they do make wiring more complicated . Though a few switches do have a maximum capacity of 10 amp , the vast majority are only capable of handling around half that , about 5 amp . Though relays seldom fail , you should never completely ignore them , i have actually replaced only two in 40 years of motoring , and believe it or not , one wasn't actually on a vehicle .
Something else i would add , is the Italians were famous for their electrics , though many , may say it's more infamy . I don't know if that still stands , but i do know older electricians are loafed to work on Italian electrics . They simply don't do electrics is the most common answer , and have a notorious reputation for this among the older mechanical circles . Now , i will say in their defence , i've not found anything too bad on my vehicle , so much so , that i would vote them higher than the Germans . I've ragged out numerous cables and connections for rerun , and reconnected those fitted by Hymer . Probably the worst i've found is the connection into the d+ wire . A scotch clip and heavy section cable joined to a very thin section wire that was threatening to break it , like really ? .

Right so looking at your last photo , we have a general relay layout , lets deal with that first . Pretty much in the centre of the layout , you're showing 3 relays which all look similar 12v , 20a . They look light tan , but on my vehicle are actually black . My research discovered they are available in several colours , which is common with most relays . It could be classed as an identification issue .
I believe two of these are for your head lights . Now if my information is correct H4 bulbs are rated at 50/65w , which equates to around 5 amps a piece , maximum wattage , totalling just over 10 amps in total . This would be perfectly within the limits of a 20a relay , but the problem here is both headlights would be connected , whereby they are fused separately . It's a mystery as to why they are fused separately , but this could be some kind of redundancy feature , quite common on heavy trucks . So i suspect each headlight has it's own relay , as there would be no point fusing separately then feeding the same relay . The third grey relay i suspect could have one of two functions , the fuel pump , or rear fog . All three relays are standard 5 terminal 20a , with a Lancia part number and listed as either headlight or fuel pump . However as it is a mandantory requirement for at least one rear fog light to be fitted on all vehicles post 1986 , i list this as well . This is one of few areas i have investigated , as i had a problem with my front fogs . I found a broken wire in the engine bay with no obvious purpose . On tracing it back until it terminated , i discovered it was the earth for the front fog relay . Beside it was the rear fog , so i know both these circuits have relays , and where they are . But lets not forget the fuel pump , as this is also likely high powered and for obvious reasons , powered continuously .

Now the faded black relays . These are also standard 5 pin , but with a higher 30a capacity . I suspect these could be main beam , and again two because they are fused separately . Faded black ? could be an indication of extensive use . Is your vehicle high mileage ?

So now i'm gonna throw these two in here , starting with the black relay you've removed . This is interesting as the unit appears to have rather a lot of connections , and that leads me to suspect this could be more than just a simple relay . An internet search revealed the part number is generic though out Italian motors including Maserati , but is helpfully listed as just ignition , with no further clues . The one exception is Maserati , who list it as part of the heater system , so it could be something to do with the heater blower , but this is a bit sketchy at best . We should not forget this is a very high amperage circuit , up to 30a in fact , and the wiring from the dash control is nowhere near heavy enough to carry this type of amperage , making a relay here a necessity . To be honest , my first thought was your windshield wiper relay , but a further problem here is mine is actually under the bonnet . Mounted pretty much where your wiper motor is , on the fire wall . I can't tell if yours has a similar layout from the photos , but i suspect not , as access would be poor . I do have to add my wiper motor has been moved as part of the Hymer conversion , so i have exceptional access to these relays . There are 2 relays in this position of which one is a 6 pin and basically twice the height , of say one of those 20a relays . I can also add , i've found evidence that suggests it's quite common for this unit not to respond in the usual manner , which further suggests this may not be a relay in the usual sense .
So now that brings us to the Orange relay , and yes i also have one of these too . It's actually an Alfa part number , and due to it's colour , screams either indicator or hazard unit . Modern practice is to combine these two functions now , so likely supports both . There is a significant amount of wiring to the switch , which appears to be replicated on this relay , the exception being the switch lighting . Lets not forget with the four ways working , including the repeaters , the system is consuming something like 94 w , though just on a matter of fact here , my van is closer to 136w . Either way it's too much for a switch to handle , making a relay also necessary . This is slightly further reinforced as you state you can't activate this again , it's technically not a relay .

and so that leaves us with the blue relay , and i also have one of these too . I've left this to last , because , well to be perfectly honest i'm not really sure what this is ! . My first thought was , with it being blue it's has something to do with water , or perhaps cold , maybe the fridge ?. I knew it couldn't be anything to do with the cooling fans , as i had already found these relays under the bonnet . However my suspicions were blown apart , after i discovered the fridge relay maybe part of the internal workings of the EBL electronic management system fitted in my van . An internet search revealed it to actually be a Fiat/Lancia part number , further making a fridge relay even more unlikely . This left me at quite a loss as to what it could be , frankly i did (and still do) suspect it could be part of the heater system , but if the new information is correct with the black relay , that would mean two relays on this system which is even more unlikely . I could be convinced that it may be something to do with a glow plug start system , but i'm pretty sure i also have one , and i have flame start . The wiring really does need tracing to figure this one out
 
I am sorry, but I lost most interest in post #14, when it became apparent that the writer was confusing current with voltage. The primary purpose of an automotive relay is to control a higher current with a lower one. However it can also serve to provide as a logical "and" function. e.g. ignition switch on, plus headlights switch on equals headlights on.

I have previously taken a good look at the x230 wiring diagrams, contained in the German workshop manual available in the downloads section, but I was unable to identify the multi pin units shown in the photos. It is possible that they may be electronic timers, rather that basic relays. One possible lead to identifying the application is the socket colour, as this is shown on the diagrams, but you do need to translate the German colour abbreviations.

I do agree it is rarely the relay that is at fault.

As has been suggested an internet search with the part number can help. Do not overlook Ebay in this respect.
 
I am sorry, but I lost most interest in post #14, when it became apparent that the writer was confusing current with voltage. The primary purpose of an automotive relay is to control a higher current with a lower one. However it can also serve to provide as a logical "and" function. e.g. ignition switch on, plus headlights switch on equals headlights on.

I have previously taken a good look at the x230 wiring diagrams, contained in the German workshop manual available in the downloads section, but I was unable to identify the multi pin units shown in the photos. It is possible that they may be electronic timers, rather that basic relays. One possible lead to identifying the application is the socket colour, as this is shown on the diagrams, but you do need to translate the German colour abbreviations.

I do agree it is rarely the relay that is at fault.

As has been suggested an internet search with the part number can help. Do not overlook Ebay in this respect.

I'm sorry @Communicator , i didn't confuse the current/voltage , i simply just stopped doing the conversion as there was little benefit in that information .

Yeah , i will admit that this is my fault as i never posted directly back after post 12 , when i thought i had , and became confused with post 13 , as we have drifted off on another tangent with relays . I never mentioned where to find the relays because as i had mentioned back in post 4 , i doubted the horn had one on this model and felt this was unlikely to be the problem . The horn taking precedence in my mind .

Feel free to take over , as i doubt the op will trust me much after this slip . I'll back out ! .

However with what i now know having reread the original post , the problem is possibly in the steering head , what's often called the clock spring though heaven knows why .
 
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Hi all
Thank you so much for all of the replies they have been very insightful and much appreciated.
Just to update you I have solved the problem with the horn and the headlight full been flash.
The two issues were not connected even though they failed at the same time.
The horn issue was a failed horn itself. I've replaced and it now works.

The headlight full beam flash was the stalk assembly itself. I have fitted a replacement from online car parts (Autodoc) and it now works :)
 

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