Technical Front Anti-Roll Bar Missing?

[Jaymz515]

Hi all.

Recently, my car came off the road due to the icy conditions we had in the UK around December. It went to the menders and came back feeling like a barge. No power, bad handling, wheel wasn't lining up straight. I told them about these things and they took it back but apparently found nothing wrong with it. Now, whether this is true or not I'm not sure and I suppose I'll have to try the car myself when I get it back and take it from there. However, they did say that the car is missing a front anti-roll bar, and has no evidence of one ever being fitted. Has anyone else ever heard of anything like this? It's a 10-plate Grande Punto, FYI. They said it could be this that is causing the issues but I never noticed it before.

Anyone got any ideas about it?

Ta.

 

[jameshobiecat]

I have not heard of a modern car coming without a front anti-roll bar. I'd be shocked if it was not meant to have one.

The steering wheel and road wheel alignment might just need tracking adjustment or something might be bent. Am I right in thinking garage gave it back to you like that? If so find another garage as this is such a basic thing to get wrong I'd have no confidence in them.

Can't help with lack of power without more specific information.

 

[Jaymz515]

Yeah, my initial thought was that they might have missed a tracking issue but apparently not. They've done a damn good job with everything else (bodywork, paint, etc) that I can't see them having missed something so basic. I am going to get it checked out elsewhere anyway, obviously.

The car came back early Jan with the issues, but apparently they can't see anything amiss. I'll try and get a second opinion but it's just all money ain't it.

I've contacted Fiat directly, as advised, about the roll bar.

Also - With regards to the lack of power, even when I rang the first time regarding the issues I had had since getting the car back, the guy on the phone said everything that's wrong with it could be as a result of tracking; loss of power, increased fuel usage, steering wheel turning right when the car's straight, etc. But apparently there's nothing amiss! Unless they don't want to admit that they missed something so simple and have fixed it up without saying anything. But I guess that's a long shot.

 

[GymJunkie]

do you know what kindof tracking equiptment they have? i would take it to somewhere to get a second opinion like demon-tweeks as they have the full laser stuff and a printout, they found out that something was bent underneath my car putting the camber out by 0.6 ish degrees

 

[Jaymz515]

It's Brooklands in Lincoln, who as far as I know have got all the laser tracking jigs and whatnot for doing it properly, which is why the man I spoke to seemed doubtful it 'would' be tracking, but that the issues caused 'could' be caused by bad tracking. If you get me.

 

[jameshobiecat]

It's Brooklands in Lincoln, who as far as I know have got all the laser tracking jigs and whatnot for doing it properly, which is why the man I spoke to seemed doubtful it 'would' be tracking, but that the issues caused 'could' be caused by bad tracking. If you get me.

If the steering wheel is not lining up straight then they must have done a bad job of tracking. If they were aware of the problem but were not able to track it satisfactorily then something is bent and they should have replaced it.

Other than a little of the power being scrubbed away by an out of line wheel, I fail to see how power loss can be attributed to tracking.

 

[Hobby]

When I change the oil in my GP I take off or undo the front stabiser running from one side to the other, its only a short bar but the oil while draining runs onto the bar and you cannot control where the oil goes so its better to take off one side, loosen the other and move it out of the way, but I have to remind myself to put it back when the change is done. Could this be your problem and someone forgot to put it back on????

 

[D4nny8oy]

When the Punto Evo was released, the last GP's left the factory with some small changes, including deletion of the front antiroll bar. AFAIK, the dampers and spring rates were adjusted to maintain handling, so if earlier-spec ones were fitted in their place they would be too soft and contribute to excessive roll.

The subframe brace was removed on lower-spec models a long time ago, and the subframe itself stiffened instead.

 

[Andy Monty]

When the Punto Evo was released, the last GP's left the factory with some small changes, including deletion of the front antiroll bar. AFAIK, the dampers and spring rates were adjusted to maintain handling, so if earlier-spec ones were fitted in their place they would be too soft and contribute to excessive roll.

The subframe brace was removed on lower-spec models a long time ago, and the subframe itself stiffened instead.

Does that mean there are no annoying drop links to go on the evo (i have seen the thin brace across the bottom of the sub fame on mine but not looked any harder?

 

[Jaymz515]

Well, the gentleman at Brooklands has decided it's for the best to keep the car for now until he finds a proper answer as to why the bar's missing. Sounds like it has all the relevant connections for the bar to fit into... just no bar. He's going to liase with Fiat on the issue and let me know how it goes.

 

[jameshobiecat]

Does that mean there are no annoying drop links to go on the evo (i have seen the thin brace across the bottom of the sub fame on mine but not looked any harder?

I think he means the evo has it but the last of the line gps that were sold alongside the evo don't.

This is a new low in the world of de-specing run out models. Stiffened springs and dampers will make up some of the loss of roll stiffness but not the whole annount without ruining the ride. There Puntos must roll quite a bit more.

 

[D4nny8oy]

Does that mean there are no annoying drop links to go on the evo (i have seen the thin brace across the bottom of the sub fame on mine but not looked any harder?

When the Punto Evo was released, the last GP's left the factory with some small changes, including deletion of the front antiroll bar. AFAIK, the dampers and spring rates were adjusted to maintain handling, so if earlier-spec ones were fitted in their place they would be too soft and contribute to excessive roll.

The subframe brace was removed on lower-spec models a long time ago, and the subframe itself stiffened instead.

Like I said, it was only the run-out models that had the ARB removed, and the 1.2 GP's had the lower brace removed.

If you speak to chassis engineers, ARB's are a fix for a problem that shouldn't exist if everything is spec'd right. Often people with a FWD car looking to improve handling and maintain tyre contact (especially on track) will remove the ARB and alter the springs and dampers accordingly.

Only the lowest-spec model was altered, partly down to money-saving, partly down to it not being a 'sporty' model. The lowest-spec mk1 Punto's had no ARB either from what I remember.

 

[Andy Monty]

Ah right was just curious the 1.4 8v evo (active feelin good) has the ARB and a cross brace) just been on my hands and knees with a torch


my 06 active had the ARB and no cross brace

No wonder there is confusion with none fiat body shops who i assume have no access to the fiat spec computer

Handy to know if someone is after a new spring or damper for a later model 1.2 GP to ensure they get the right one

 

[D4nny8oy]

TBH, Fiat made no big announcement of it to Dealers. The first time we realised was when PDI'ing one for the first time and thinking it was a mis-build!

 

[jameshobiecat]

Danny boy is right to say that anti-roll bars are often removed for track work and many race cars are designed without them from the outset. Adding roll stiffness to an axle using an anti-roll bar (or stiffening the springs) will increase the lateral transfer of vertical load and thus reduce grip on the axle in question. However removing the anti-roll bar will increase body roll and if the springs are then stiffened to regain the same roll stiffness then the ride will suffer. On track this does not matter a jot but in the real world the anti-roll bar allows you to de-couple spring rate from roll stiffness thus allowing a better ride for given body roll or less body roll for a given ride quality.

 

[chricol]

hi and sorry for re-awakening an old thread..

My 09 1.2 GP also does not have an ARB and I was thinking to fit one some time ago. Since then, I have fitted an ultra-racing 4 point Strut Brace, and fitted 40mm lowering springs. The car handles way better than before but still rolls a bit more than i would like it under heavy cornering.

I know it's not a sporty car but I prefer its ability to outcorner other hatches rather than straight line speed.

My question is, given the mods i have done already, will it be beneficial in any way if I fit an (oem or otherwise) ARB? or would it just be a waste of money?

P.S. I have tried to attach a pic of my engine bay.. I know it's very dirty but bear in mind that it's a daily drive

 

[ChrisUK]

Try it and find out a ARB would be pretty inexpensive if your fitting yourself.

 

[chricol]

Yes i'll be fitting myself for sure but is it worth the hassle?

 

[jameshobiecat]

Yes i'll be fitting myself for sure but is it worth the hassle?

I suspect you are not going to get a straigh answer to that as I doubt anyone has actually done it. You will have to suck it and see.

What you can expect is less body roll, a firmer ride over big single wheel bumps (i.e. Pot holes) and more (yes more) understeer.

 

[chricol]

Erm, might sound a bit strange but my grande does not suffer from understeer.

I think it's the combination of a light 1.2 engine, strut brace and very expensive bridgestone tyres. I also modified the toe angle for a slight toe out which makes the front turn in much much better. Sometimes i even feel the rear inside tyre lift under hard cornering, but then I have to calm things down before the rear lets go and things get messy.

Might actually try it then if i find a decent arb available somewhere. will let you know about the outcome.