Technical Fiat ducato 2.8jtd 2006 engine 8140.43s

[Quadman200]

Hi everyone I am in need of help please
i purchased a Fiat ducato Rapido motorhome in November i have because the dealer couldn’t tell me when the cambelt was changed I booked into garage 400 miles ago for replacement. The vehicle has done just under 45000 miles one previous owner. We broke down on the motorway last Friday the alternator belt has been shredded against the lower plastic case and then must have broken and bits of belt have gone into the bottom crank pulley. I stopped as soon as I saw the battery light come on.
it took 12 hours to get recovered but now at a garage. the timing belt is intact but garage hasnt looked yet to check the timing. Does any Fiat mechanic know how many teeth a belt would need to jump to bend the valves in the head. As can be seen the alternator belt has worn away the bottom cover. Any info would be greatly appreciated and also where I could get a manual.

 

[bugsymike]

Hi everyone I am in need of help please
i purchased a Fiat ducato Rapido motorhome in November i have because the dealer couldn’t tell me when the cambelt was changed I booked into garage 400 miles ago for replacement. The vehicle has done just under 45000 miles one previous owner. We broke down on the motorway last Friday the alternator belt has been shredded against the lower plastic case and then must have broken and bits of belt have gone into the bottom crank pulley. I stopped as soon as I saw the battery light come on.
it took 12 hours to get recovered but now at a garage. the timing belt is intact but garage hasnt looked yet to check the timing. Does any Fiat mechanic know how many teeth a belt would need to jump to bend the valves in the head. As can be seen the alternator belt has worn away the bottom cover. Any info would be greatly appreciated and also where I could get a manual.

From what you say it sounds like possibly the first garage didn't fit the cover back properly causing the alternator belt to rub.
See what this garage advises, but generally I would remove the cam belt cover and check all is good in there i.e. correctly on timing marks and adjusted correctly, then turn engine by hand at least two full revolutions before trying to start with the key. Fingers crossed it is all OK and then cam belt cover and alternator belt refit correctly and on your way.
Generally if belt is timed wrong or slips due to any issue, valves hit pistons and bends con rods on that model, so engine destroyed. I have seen many of those 2.8 Sofim engines in Iveco Dailys and even rebuilt one from a Ducato Maxi van and put it in a boat which I ran for over four years.
Re a manual there is an Iveco pdf version somewhere on this Forum. I also have Auto Data details and cambelt book details, though obviously your garage will have their own version of that.
Looking at your photos I expect the garage will clean all the old belt stuff away and try a new cambelt and go from there.Fingers crossed.

 

[Quadman200]

The garage that fitted the cambelt are not interested and are making all kinds of excuses of why it isnt their fault. They want me to have the Motorhome delivered to them at my cost for assessment but it would cost me a-lot of money to get transported to them for them to say something else caused it so further out of pocket. And after this problem why would I get them to do anything. As you can see from the pictures there is still belt parts in the pulley so this has to be removed once it is checked for timing. The AA man took the bottom pulley off to check the condition as I carry a alternator belt but he said it needed recovering so it is at a different garage than the one who put the new cambelt on.
Would it bend Con-rods rather than bend the valves if timing has jumped on the belt?
next step by the garage is to remove top engine mount to be able to remove the top timing belt cover and check timing. Fingers crossed it hasn’t jumped then it would be removal and replace with new cambelt kit and crank seal but I don’t think I will be that lucky.

 

[bugsymike]

The garage that fitted the cambelt are not interested and are making all kinds of excuses of why it isnt their fault. They want me to have the Motorhome delivered to them at my cost for assessment but it would cost me a-lot of money to get transported to them for them to say something else caused it so further out of pocket. And after this problem why would I get them to do anything. As you can see from the pictures there is still belt parts in the pulley so this has to be removed once it is checked for timing. The AA man took the bottom pulley off to check the condition as I carry a alternator belt but he said it needed recovering so it is at a different garage than the one who put the new cambelt on.
Would it bend Con-rods rather than bend the valves if timing has jumped on the belt?
next step by the garage is to remove top engine mount to be able to remove the top timing belt cover and check timing. Fingers crossed it hasn’t jumped then it would be removal and replace with new cambelt kit and crank seal but I don’t think I will be that lucky.

On the ones I have seen with broken cam belts it usually involved several new valves and at least one con rod.
Due to the close tolerances with modern diesel engines if timing failure, valves hit pistons and con rods take the damage also.
When cylinder heads come off normally two pistons up at the same height and two down at the same height, but if con rod bent one piston would be lower by a couple of mm.
Was engine still running smoothly when you stopped it due to alternator issue? If so and you caught it in time you may be lucky.

 

[Quadman200]

On the ones I have seen with broken cam belts it usually involved several new valves and at least one con rod.
Due to the close tolerances with modern diesel engines if timing failure, valves hit pistons and con rods take the damage also.
When cylinder heads come off normally two pistons up at the same height and two down at the same height, but if con rod bent one piston would be lower by a couple of mm.
Was engine still running smoothly when you stopped it due to alternator issue? If so and you caught it in time you may be lucky.

Hi it was running and safely pulled over onto hard shoulder and switched off straight away as I saw battery light come on and was aware that the alternator belt drives the water pump. I will update as soon as the garage has done the timing check early next week.
I just would really like to understand how this would have happened.
Thank you for taking time to reply I appreciate it

 

[bugsymike]

Hi it was running and safely pulled over onto hard shoulder and switched off straight away as I saw battery light come on and was aware that the alternator belt drives the water pump. I will update as soon as the garage has done the timing check early next week.
I just would really like to understand how this would have happened.
Thank you for taking time to reply I appreciate it

Sounds promising for minimal damage.
I expect the current garage will clean all the melted plastic and damaged belt etc. away then fit a new timing belt kit and alternator belt, along with taking special care that the cam belt cover is sitting correctly giving good clearance around the alternator belt as I suspect that was the cause of the original issue.
A good road test and inspection may be necessary to ensure no head gasket issues as you mention it drives the water pump also.
Providing that is the answer and no further damage, I would be tempted to suggest the original garage be presented with the bill and explain they were lucky it didn't result in a total engine replacement at even higher expense.
You could accompany it with photographic evidence and anything the current garage can provide in writing along with all the damaged parts to corroborate your claim for damage as well as the AA report on the breakdown.

 

[Communicator]

Hi everyone I am in need of help please

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Any info would be greatly appreciated and also where I could get a manual.

ELearn for the x244 in Downloads section, also perhaps FreeSpirits guide for changing the cambelt. This will indicate what is involved when changing the belt.

 

[bugsymike]

Re Cambelt job.

 

[harveybean]

sorry to hijack your thread, but just wanted to ask bugsy where and what book that is!

 

[bugsymike]

sorry to hijack your thread, but just wanted to ask bugsy where and what book that is!

It was a trade publication by a company called AutoData on Timing Belts for most vehicles, that was the 2012 edition, they did various technical manuals also, specifically for Diesel and another for Petrol.
It is all online now by subscription , fairly expensive for a one man business but very useful.
I preferred the books as the were handy to go back to for older vehicles etc. Whereas now when you stop subscribing you lose it all!
As an apprentice in the 1960s we used TSD Technical Service Data Manuals by a company called Palgrave Publishing, they had all the correct torque settings as well as much more.
My old college lecturer always said he liked to go into garages and see these books covered in greasy finger prints as it meant the lads it was designed for were using them.
Old copies can sometimes be found on eBay etc. and at Auto Jumbles so keep your eye open.

 

[Quadman200]

i Had to pay for recovery to the garage that fitted the cambelt only three miles from the other garage which cost £210 its been there several weeks and a challenge to get them to agree to start looking at it. First problem identified damage to the valves, cylinder head being stripped off today. Will have to wait and see if any of the Conrods have been damaged.

 

[bugsymike]

i Had to pay for recovery to the garage that fitted the cambelt only three miles from the other garage which cost £210 its been there several weeks and a challenge to get them to agree to start looking at it. First problem identified damage to the valves, cylinder head being stripped off today. Will have to wait and see if any of the Conrods have been damaged.

Doesn't sound ideal, it would be better if they gave you more confidence, quickly stripped it down to ascertain the cause and who was liable to your satisfaction and carried out a good repair.
It sounds as though if they accept liability it will just be a minimal repair to get you off their back.
The reason I suggest con rod damage be checked for is whilst on many diesels they have rockers to push the valves down which break first , however on the Sofim 2.8 the cam sits directly over the valve so if timing out valve is forced into the piston and on down to bend the con rod. With head off it may be visible to the eye with pistons at matching position, failing that a dial gauge may be necessary as you are looking for a couple of mm of distortion to con rod.
If you have AA legal support could you get them to send an engineer to assess the damage and say what needs to be done to perform a good repair. Further more if they prove to be liable then the recovery costs should be included in the claim.
If they are a big professional garage they should have insurance cover for damage caused by their staff whilst working on your vehicle. I did as part of my Motor Trade Insurance Policy, though only a one man business and I am glad to say over the nearly 40 years I ran it I never needed to make a claim.

 

[Quadman200]

Doesn't sound ideal, it would be better if they gave you more confidence, quickly stripped it down to ascertain the cause and who was liable to your satisfaction and carried out a good repair.
It sounds as though if they accept liability it will just be a minimal repair to get you off their back.
The reason I suggest con rod damage be checked for is whilst on many diesels they have rockers to push the valves down which break first , however on the Sofim 2.8 the cam sits directly over the valve so if timing out valve is forced into the piston and on down to bend the con rod. With head off it may be visible to the eye with pistons at matching position, failing that a dial gauge may be necessary as you are looking for a couple of mm of distortion to con rod.
If you have AA legal support could you get them to send an engineer to assess the damage and say what needs to be done to perform a good repair. Further more if they prove to be liable then the recovery costs should be included in the claim.
If they are a big professional garage they should have insurance cover for damage caused by their staff whilst working on your vehicle. I did as part of my Motor Trade Insurance Policy, though only a one man business and I am glad to say over the nearly 40 years I ran it I never needed to make a claim.

They have told me yesterday that they accept liability, they also told me they have insurance cover but need to do a complete check before they decide how to procide. I am not sure how there insurance would work as I have not been in this position before.