Technical Fait Ducato 2.3 MultiJet waterpump / Fuel pump problem

[Whiskers]

Hello everyone! Firstly, Happy New year to one and all on the forum.

Now recently I had some time to finish the work on my van. It's a 2014 Fiat Ducato Maxi with the 2.3L MultiJet engine. Same as the Iveco.
When I order parts for my vehicles, I try not to get the cheapest parts, but not always the most expensive parts either and I try and stick to manufacturers that I know. This was also the case now when I did the timing belt (SKF) and a new waterpump (Valeo).

After a lot of cleaning and prep work I started the installation. As I'm sure many of you know, the high pressure fuel pump bolts on to the waterpump housing with three bolts. I secured the high pressure fuel pump with the original bolts to the new Valeo waterpump, but when it came to installing the pulley for the high pressure fuel pump I noticed the pulley makes contact with the fuel pump bolts and this is by hand without me even having the nut on that secures the pulley. I thought that perhaps the fuel pump was not sitting flush with the rear of the waterpump housing but it was and I tripple checked it. Can it be that the thickness of the Valeo waterpump housing is different to the old waterpump hence the pulley making contact? I replaced the bolts with other bolts with a slightly thinner head and could secure the pully. There is clearance between the pulley and the bolts, and the pully and the waterpump housing, but really not much! This worries me a bit as the timing belt runs on the fuel pump pulley and I know these are interference engines.
Also what I think I should mention, is that the new bolts I used are A2 Stainless Steel bolts. Are they too hard and at risk of snapping off for example? I think the original bolts are a milder steel that has the ability to stretch a bit more. I don't know to be honest, hence me asking.

So I assembled everything and the van started up beautifully and purrs like a kitten, but I am still worried about this that I have mentioned above.

One more quick question... The SKF timing belt tensioner has got two little triangles on it. Am I right in assuming those triangles need to allign point to point when tensioning the timing belt? After tensioning the belt I could still bend it over a bit by hand which as far as I know is correct. I couldn't find any info regarding this, but there is quite a lot of info on the net regarding the Gates timing belt kits, but not this that I have.

That is all for now. I am looking forward to the light that some of you may shed on this matter for me.

Regards, Whiskers

 

[bugsymike]

Two things.
Regarding the bolt strength see if the marking numbers letters on bolt heads can give you a guide regarding tensile strength apart from one being stainless.
Regarding the timing details my Auto Data book is a 2012 so only lists up to 2011, are these engine codes the same as yours?

 

[Whiskers]

Hi Bugsymike. Thanks for the quick reply.
I will take a look at the bolts and see what info I can get from them and compare it to the original bolts. Regarding the timing - On the photos you posted the tensioner has got the notches like on the Gates timing belt tensioner. I have already started disasembling the van again and will take some photos of the SKF tensioner I have. I think that would give you and everyone else a better idea of what I mean about the little triangles. And yes, the engine codes are the same. That auto data book must be great. I purchased a CD workshop manual but it does not have the detail that your book has.

 

[bugsymike]

Hi Bugsymike. Thanks for the quick reply.
I will take a look at the bolts and see what info I can get from them and compare it to the original bolts. Regarding the timing - On the photos you posted the tensioner has got the notches like on the Gates timing belt tensioner. I have already started disasembling the van again and will take some photos of the SKF tensioner I have. I think that would give you and everyone else a better idea of what I mean about the little triangles. And yes, the engine codes are the same. That auto data book must be great. I purchased a CD workshop manual but it does not have the detail that your book has.

I was in the motor trade for over fifty years and good technical service data and cambelt timing books were a must, so a good investment and still have some. Unfortunately nowadays it is all on internet with yearly renewals and very expensive so when expires you have nothing to show for it.
I may have the technical data for yours also giving torque settings, oils, etc. but only up to the same age.

 

[Communicator]

Hello everyone! Firstly, Happy New year to one and all on the forum.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Also what I think I should mention, is that the new bolts I used are A2 Stainless Steel bolts. Are they too hard and at risk of snapping off for example? I think the original bolts are a milder steel that has the ability to stretch a bit more. I don't know to be honest, hence me asking.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Regards, Whiskers

I would not expect bolts used in motor vehicle construction to be of less than 8.8 ton tensile strength, which will be marked on the bolt head. Having previously read similar queries, my curiosity led me to investigating the relative strength of stainless steel. It seems that A4 stainless steel is comparable to 8.8 high tensile steel. while A2 is somewhat weaker.

 

[bugsymike]

I would not expect bolts used in motor vehicle construction to be of less than 8.8 ton tensile strength, which will be marked on the bolt head. Having previously read similar queries, my curiosity led me to investigating the relative strength of stainless steel. It seems that A4 stainless steel is comparable to 8.8 high tensile steel. while A2 is somewhat weaker.

On my boat I tended to go for A4 Stainless, although mainly for anti corrosion benefits, there is also 304 versus 316 stainless, 316 being stronger and more corrosion resistant.

 

[Communicator]

On my boat I tended to go for A4 Stainless, although mainly for anti corrosion benefits, there is also 304 versus 316 stainless, 316 being stronger and more corrosion resistant.

From what I have read, for A2 read 304, or 18/8, and for A4 read 316, or 18/10 (refers to chromium/nickel content). My father was a fan of stainless steel, and when I was young he aquired several large sheets of 18/8 in varying gauges. I still have more than I will use.

 

[bugsymike]

From what I have read, for A2 read 304, or 18/8, and for A4 read 316, or 18/10 (refers to chromium/nickel content). My father was a fan of stainless steel, and when I was young he aquired several large sheets of 18/8 in varying gauges. I still have more than I will use.

I managed to Tig weld the stainless steel exhaust I made for my boats turbo and water cooled exhaust in 4 inch A4 tube, not as pretty as professional but it didn't leak and on full boost at 26 Knots the 2.8 Sofim diesel from a 1998 Ducato Maxi van sounded quite good.
I did fit out my kitchen at home using S/H catering equipment (nothing special but it did cost less than even a designer kitchen) Catering stainless is hard and not the quality of marine grade, so it is harder to saw and drill.
As an apprentice I used to be able to gas weld mild steel quite neatly, but never able to duplicate that with Tig and Mig killed off gas welding for most workshops.

 

[Whiskers]

Hi everyone. So I disassembled the van again. I have taken a photo of the old and new tensioner that I will post to show you the difference and hopefully someone here can explain to me how to tension the cambelt with my new SKF tensioner. You will see the new tensioner does not have the notches that the other old tensioner has. In bugsymike's auto data book it shows in nice detail how to tension my old tensioner. Beginning to wish I had purchased a Gates Timing belt kit instead of SKF.

And regarding the stainless steel bolts I used...I removed them and replaced them with automotive grade bolts. It shows 8.8 on the head.
Back in my gold mining days I recall having some stainless steel hoppers that I would fill with 1.8T of broken ore which would be pulled and pushed back and forth with a little locomotive and I remember always having to fix these stainless steel hoppers which was a pain because they were so hard. The normal steel hoppers were bent and buckled but they never broke like the stainless steel hoppers. So I guess it proves that when it comes to tensile strength, being harder doesn't always mean it the strongest.

 

[Anthony489]

Hi

This site has the same information as the Gates book, but may be easier to read: http://replace-timing-belt.com/how-to-replace-timing-chain-on-fiat-ducato-2-3-2008/

I do not know how the markings work for the SKF tensioner - sorry !

 

[Whiskers]

Hi Anthony489. Thanks for the link you posted. It seems to be in as great detail as Bugsymike's auto data book and I will be printing it in a few moments time. Thank you!

As for the SKF tensioner markings, I just found something online. I will share the link and it might just help someone in the future with a SKF tensioner like mine. When I read it, it seems to be translated but I have seen worse. It's also not in the greatest detail but at least it deals with this SKF tensioner.

https://vehicleaftermarket.skf.com/images/products/pdf/TB_VKM_12390_EN_0221.PDF

 

[bugsymike]

Hi Anthony489. Thanks for the link you posted. It seems to be in as great detail as Bugsymike's auto data book and I will be printing it in a few moments time. Thank you!

As for the SKF tensioner markings, I just found something online. I will share the link and it might just help someone in the future with a SKF tensioner like mine. When I read it, it seems to be translated but I have seen worse. It's also not in the greatest detail but at least it deals with this SKF tensioner.

https://vehicleaftermarket.skf.com/images/products/pdf/TB_VKM_12390_EN_0221.PDF

I was going to suggest SKF website, always found the company very helpful and good quality parts.

 

[Whiskers]

I also am a fan of SKF parts. I have been for a long time
On that link I posted, SKF mentions 'hot stop hammering' and apparantly this new design tensioner avoids it. What is hot stop hammering? I googled it but couldn't find any info on it and my curiosity is killing me. Does anyone know what this 'hot stop hammering is?

 

[Anthony489]

Hi

I have looked at the SKF pdf. It does seem to be a slightly "odd" translation to English. I think what they are saying is that "Stage 1" has the two arrows aligned, then after turning the engine 8 revolutions the belt the tensioner is loosened, moved a bit further till the arrow is opposite the centre of the "C" shaped notch ("Stage 2") and then re-tightened. However, you must check this for yourself.

One thing to be aware of is that makers claim that belts settle after heating/cooling and running cycles ("initial tensile decay"). The tensioner settings assume that the belt is new and allow for this settling. If a belt has already settled, using the "new belt" tensioner settings might result in over-tensioning

Maybe "hot stop hammering" is a resonance in the belt when you switch off a hot engine ? I have never heard of it. As the tensioner is a spring based device, adding some sort of damping would reduce resonance (like a mini version of the shock absorber in the supension)

 

[bugsymike]

Hi

I have looked at the SKF pdf. It does seem to be a slightly "odd" translation to English. I think what they are saying is that "Stage 1" has the two arrows aligned, then after turning the engine 8 revolutions the belt the tensioner is loosened, moved a bit further till the arrow is opposite the centre of the "C" shaped notch ("Stage 2") and then re-tightened. However, you must check this for yourself.

One thing to be aware of is that makers claim that belts settle after heating/cooling and running cycles ("initial tensile decay"). The tensioner settings assume that the belt is new and allow for this settling. If a belt has already settled, using the "new belt" tensioner settings might result in over-tensioning

Maybe "hot stop hammering" is a resonance in the belt when you switch off a hot engine ? I have never heard of it. As the tensioner is a spring based device, adding some sort of damping would reduce resonance (like a mini version of the shock absorber in the supension)

I always turn an engine over by hand several times to check tensioner position etc. and if possible with cover off after running for a short while, for peace of mind.
Sorry never heard of "hot stop hammering"